Confirm my belief

[brudus_maximus]

I belive if there isn't a federal investigation into what went wrong with the katrina relief effort. If the guilty parties arn't found and punished for people literary dieing where they stand. If not it will just confirm my belief that your government doesn't have you in mind.

[Talidro]

Im positive there will be an investigation, but not for why people died there. Even declaring a mandatory evac, like they did, you have people that will NOT go anywhere, believe me, Ive been thru several storms, Im sure some people remember my journal entry here (while I was in GSP) about hurricane Dennis, well I went thru Ivan last year too, 20 ft surge of water, we knew about it 2 days in advance, and people lived on the water, Im talking like high tide comes to with 10-20 feet of their house, and these people REFUSED to leave, regardless of the mandatory evacuation in place for their area.

You could make an argument that the police should have forced them to leave, and in fact they did try, they do not have the manpower to forcibly remove (in my area) 1000 people living on the water that dont want to go, let alone the (potentially in NO.) 100,000 people that didnt want to evac.

So the reason that these people died, isnt necessarily the governments fault. You could make a case that they should have had more supplies in place for the aftermath before the storm. You know what, they did, guess what?? they got destroyed like the other buildings and stuff, which then meant they had to somehow get new supplies into the ravaged area that had very few roads passable.

I dont mean to come off as rude, or heartless, its just that most people in this country, and very few people outside this country have NO, absolutely NONE, idea of what a hurricane actually can do, even if you are prepared. That being said, I still am a critic of the rescue/relief efforts, and the cut in funding for the N.O. levee system, but not of the preparation for the storm because like I said, Ive been thru quite a bunch of these things, unlike most of the critics.

[Tacz]

If a storm hits a populated area, people will die. If a storm hits a densely populated area, many people will die. It's simply a fact that it would have been impossible to evacuate the entire city, and I find the thought repulsive that someone believes that anyone in the higher levels of the government cut funding to relief efforts literally with malintet toward the people in the city.

[brudus_maximus]

I'm not talking about people dying directly from the storm by having their houses cave in on them or anything like that. I'm talking about people who survived the storm and were at the superdome, but due to the slow federal responce died from no water or food.

!Warning! the following pictures may distrub some. Sometimes the truth is difficult to take.

[telnarus]

Do you really want to know where the system failed. Us the tax payers. Look at it this way, all these conservative folks that want to cut budgets all these liberals that want to cut the military because the cold war is over. We could go into an even deeper discussion over how tax payers money is spent, but I will keep it somewhat basic.

When Katrina hit, all bases in the area affected by Katrina were evacuated. I.e. all equipment and personel. This is a no brainer. If they would have stayed. The equipment and the military that would have stayed would be utterly destroyed. But this action was a HAVE TO movement. With all of the base closings. This removes redundant back up equipment caches and storage locations. Each base closing breaks up the design of our military to begin with. A spread out force capable of withstanding single strike attacks. As you close bases, sure you cut taxes spent to the military BUT you make our military more vulnerable to single strike attacks or points of weakness.

When we moved all the troops out and the equipment, we then had to start moving back in. I can tell you, after the damage the winds caused it could have been worse. When Memphis was hit with hurricane force winds for 9 hours, it knocked down so many trees and power lines and made the roads and city impassable. This is what slowed down the overall amount of time it has taken. Sure they can clear it to get equipment through but it takes time.

Now lets hit on the other subject slowing things down. Folks are shooting at the people that are trying to help. This makes clearing even slower. Now the troops have to move in a defensive formation. This is a perfect example of people that need to NOT reproduce. Desperation is not an excuse for this type of behavior. I can see riots at water ration points, at first aid stations. But we are talking about electrical linemen, red cross personel, basically anyone not in their little pack. Desperation will make people do many things but attacking someone they know is trying to help is just shooting themselves in the foot.

Now, lets touch on, another severe deficit. THe american public transportation system is simply put SHITTY. This is to defend why some of the people didn't leave. Sure there was an evacuation called, but our public transportation system would never have been able to move all the folks anyway.

Now, if you really want to place blame, place it on those that are directly responsible, the american tax payer. Many folks rather than stepping up and voicing feel they are powerless against the corps and thus many folks don't vote or voice their thoughts. Also, some just simply don't care until it shows up in their backyard such as now.

But to simply say, someone is to blame and looking for a scape goat is not the solution. THe feds didn't fall short, they had folks there as soon as they could. If you want to see some real change, look for a flat rate tax and yank these deductions for large corps. The income tax is great when the economy is poor. THe sales tax is great when the economy is thriving. We need to find a happy medium between the 2. Lets get our military back to where it needs to be. Many bases spread out across the US. Lets get corporations out of control of the government.

[Otori]

http://chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685

Nuff Said?

[telnarus]

Yep, now, can we get the Gas Companies to step up to the plate. I mean, it is plain dirty business raising gas prices. Gas prices were raised 1 day after the hurricane. I drove from Memphis to Atlanta this past weekend to help with my fiance's dead grandmother's house sale. Leaving on THursday prices had already reached $3.29 from 2.40's the day before. Now mind you this is the same gas that the oil had already been paid for.

Now, lets hit the road to atlanta, we saw prices from $2.69 to $3.50 from here to Atlanta. As a word, BP Gas stations, had a pretty solid $2.99 all the way.

Now in Atlanta, the gov't had to step in because of the severe price gouging. $5000 dollars for each incident, an $10000 if it involved a senior citizen.

Look at it this way, the price of barrels of oil went down and the price of gas went up. Where is the problem here? The EPA lifted the restriction that just took effect so the old refineries that didn't meet the spec were shutdown. THe only thing they would have to do is go through a day or 2 of system testing and they would be in full production. What cost? None. or maybe some minor maintance. THe fed gov't needs to step in and actually kick these oil companies in the ass.

America needs to get back to the basics and realize that America was not founded on the all mighty dollar. It was founded on a group of repressed people banding together and making a good place to live.

The one thing to remember about Katrina... THis is a natural disaster that NO ONE in America has ever seen anything in the realm of the damage caused during this. THis is pretty damned close to as bad as it gets.

[Gridfan]

Dump patent system, and also kick the Hollywood music/movie industry in the ass and things will improve!

But seriously though (and yes I hate the ent. media), what caught my eye was this:

KBR was assigned the work under a "construction capabilities" contract awarded in 2004 after a competitive bidding process. The company is not involved in the Army Corps of Engineers' effort to repair New Orleans' levees.

It's a good thing I'm not the leader of a nation, if I was nobody would be rich,
but nobody would ever lack anything either.
You know what I would have done in regards to the quote there?
i would (as the goverment) have ordered all regional companies
to work with the repair crews, and to perform all work and provide materials
"at cost" only prices and then bill the goverment.

I mean, seriously. It's in the regional companies own interested
to get the community back up again as soon as humanly possible.
(so the consumers can get back to spending money again)

If I was the boss of a local or regional company,
I would have offered the full services of the company,
to the goverment for "at cost" only prices.

I'm floored that such a concept is not mandatory by law in every country in the world, because it should be.

[Darth Bootay]

Man, can we get any more upper-middle class here? Scuse me, but get real. Not everyone has the wherewithal to, as I've heard it glibly put, "pack up the minivan and drive to the summer home for a few days". Honey, don't blame the dead for dying of being poor and having their local and federal infrastructures FAIL THEM.

And they were failed from before the storm hit to now. Explain to me why it is that journalists and camera crews from CNN and other news agencies could get to these wretched people and the freaking NATIONAL GUARD, who SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE IN ADVANCE could not. If you can come up with a logical, rational explaination of that that doesn't clearly state that the system was criminally negligent, then you should immediately apply for a job on the Bush Administration.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist who also happens to be a master of socio-economics to know that Katrina was going to utterly destroy the Gulf Coast and that there were a SHITPILE of people that couldn't leave because they had NOWHERE TO GO AND NO WAY TO GET THERE. Even our brain trust George W has to be smart enough to figure THAT one out. Fact is, the government doesn't give a rat's ass about a location filled with a majority that is grindingly poor and unexploitable. And THAT is a fatal freaking error on the part of the government. Because as placid and propagandized as many of us are, there are a LOT of us that see beyond our own affairs and take extreme umbrage at seeing what's happened down on the Gulf Coast and how it's being handled with less care and attention than most podunk foriegn nations get in times of equatable need.

Those of you who can't think past your own overfed, overpriveledged asses enough to understand the scale of the failure of our government in taking care of its people and who have the unmitigated GALL to suggest that these people brought this devastation down upon themselves need to quit watching Fox Network because you've got a terminal case of braindead off it. Stop sucking on the propaganda teat, kiddies. No really. And while you're at it, get a freaking heart and rejoin the human race.

Pardon my spleen, but some of what's been said here makes me embarrassed to admit I belong to the same species as some of the posters, much less the same nation. If this gets an edit, so be it. I'll not candycoat or soften this in any way just to save the feelings of people who plainly have none.

[Boinky]

I posted my response to this in a thread on the AO forums on Saturday which didn't last very long(understandably) Suffice it to say I pretty much agree with teh Bootay on this one. About the only two words that readily come to mind are criminal negligence. Forget everything else, and at least notice they didn't really start serious relief efforts till a few days later after getting asked what they were doing by reporters time and again.

[Otori]

Hmm..thought it would generate more interest that Halliburton was awarded the non-competitive bid for the clean up and reconstruction.

Edit: Oh wait, it does say competeive bid *wink wink nudge nudge

[Vallikat]

Hmm..thought it would generate more interest that Halliburton was awarded the non-competitive bid for the clean up and reconstruction.

Edit: Oh wait, it does say competeive bid *wink wink nudge nudge

I agree with Boo on this one. I'd care about Halliburton (and might get around to caring on that score eventually) if I wasn't so completely and utterly disgusted and pissed off by the disgraceful delay in response and the still disgracefull shortfall of the response.

There are people who died because they chose to ride it out. There are people who died because they had no choice but to ride it out. But what is worse are the people who died because their country failed them. There is simply no excuse for that.

The other night (I forget when exactly) I was watching the news and the USNS Comfort (hospital ship) was getting set to depart Baltimore after having been deployed to hurricane zone. Do you know how long it will take it to reach the area? 1 week. That's after it took 3 days (it normally takes 7, but they worked double time to get it out faster) to get ready. That's a total of 10 days (and should have been 2 weeks) before it will arrive after being deployed and it wasn't deployed until a few days after the hurricane. Now you want to tell me what the hold-up was on that one? It surely wasn't the roads.

[Darth Bootay]

Hmm..thought it would generate more interest that Halliburton was awarded the non-competitive bid for the clean up and reconstruction.

Edit: Oh wait, it does say competeive bid *wink wink nudge nudge

The Haliburton contract is a small symptom of the massive disease that is infecting our government on all levels, from Federal all the way down to local. It is this pernicious Tamany Hall style cronyism <sp?> that prevented better levee repair in the face of storms of mounting ferocity over the years, that ensured that the poor in Louisiana got poorer and never recieved the aid they needed BEFORE Katrina that might have made them less helpless in the face of nature, that prevents global initiatives from being joined by the USA, that made sure a fucking buffoon was put in charge of our national disaster department and that is DIRECTLY responsible for the deaths of those people down south in the fury and now the wake of hurricane Katrina.

Those of you who want to point your fingers at the average Joe Taxpayer, get a clue. Average Joe the Taxpayer's breaks didn't compare to those given to Biff Megacorp and Tex Oilbaron and they have their hands so far up George W's rectum that you can see their fingers wiggling while they make him do his little moron dance for the press and the rest of the world. So get off the taxpayer guilt trip before you rupture something. If you want to blame the average Joe, you better choose the right guilt-stick to beat him with. That would be apathy and ignorance enough to continually put semi-fascist Slum Lords and neo-Slave Owners in office term after term when they don't even bother to pretend they aren't selling us by the pound to line their own pockets and increase their own personal power at the expense of our civil rights and sometimes our very lives. But it's a hard, bitter pill to swallow, this reality, isn't it? It's so much more COMFORTABLE to believe that they're not so bad as all that and that in the end it will all be okay.

Republican? Democrat? They're two flavours of the same corrupt and broken shitpile. So don't bring partisanship into this (if you're dumb enough to think of it). They have all failed us and they will continue to fail us on a growing scale the longer they can get away with doing these kinds of things with no culpability to the American people and to the rest of the world.

And again, I'd like to personally stick my foot up the asses of anyone who had the gall to pussy out and place the blame on the dead. You have placed yourselves on the lowest level of my fuck-you list and have earned a very long stay in the bad monkey house along with your pals Rumsfeld, Bush, Cheney and Robertson. May the winds of change blow you a very hard learning experience.

[Vitalitus]

The government should've reacted faster, and I hope the gas price spike will awaken some to how much we need an alternative source.

[Otori]

Nobody listens to science...especially the jokers that have power in this country.

Snopes link first incase anybody discredits:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/katrina/foretold.asp

And then the Text:

It was a broiling August afternoon in New Orleans, Louisiana, the Big Easy, the City That Care Forgot. Those who ventured outside moved as if they were swimming in tupelo honey. Those inside paid silent homage to the man who invented air-conditioning as they watched TV "storm teams" warn of a hurricane in the Gulf of Mexico. Nothing surprising there: Hurricanes in August are as much a part of life in this town as hangovers on Ash Wednesday.

But the next day the storm gathered steam and drew a bead on the city. As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.

The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level more than eight feet below in places so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.

Thousands drowned in the murky brew that was soon contaminated by sewage and industrial waste. Thousands more who survived the flood later perished from dehydration and disease as they waited to be rescued. It took two months to pump the city dry, and by then the Big Easy was buried under a blanket of putrid sediment, a million people were homeless, and 50,000 were dead. It was the worst natural disaster in the history of the United States.

When did this calamity happen? It hasn't yet. But the doomsday scenario is not far-fetched. The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City. Even the Red Cross no longer opens hurricane shelters in the city, claiming the risk to its workers is too great.

This is from October 2004 National Geographic.

I take no political stance on this either way. The mass majority of people don't listen to SCIENCE. The "threats" are constantly pushed aside as left or even right-wing conspiricies. Until the provbial heads are pulled out of asses, things remain the same. Should Coulda Woulda. Meterologists have been warning this for years, Climatologists can't believe it took this long.

Too me, it's just sickingly funny that Halliburton got the contract. It actually makes me vomit.

[telnarus]

In the end, you do indeed have a choice on not to vote on either a republican or democrat. Hell if you want to you can vote on a communist. Parties as it was discussed before are being skewed daily. In the end, you have to have balance in the system. To far to either side of the wing is dangerous and will always have negative impact.

You point fingers at how, those who wish to place blame on the tax payers... Um, hello, how do the cheese heads get into office. THey aren't just given a gold star, a pat on the butt, and move right on in to your new office. If anything your inability to see your RESPONSIBILITY show much more than anything. Like I said, no one gets pissed until it happens in their backyard.

I have been writing letters, emails, doing lunches about various reforms for the past 10 years. Has it done anything, a couple of things. HAs it made a HUGE change, no. But at the same time, I know who I will vote for in the next round of elections.

IMHO, we almost need to scrap all the frigging law books and rewrite them all. THere are so many useless laws on the books, as well as hurtful, as well as good laws. The problem, how fropping insane you have to be to read them.

In the end the tax payer does indeed have power. You may not have the power TODAY. But come election time THAT is when you have your power. You also have the power to write letters. Make phone calls. Protest. You get the picture.

But to say the tax payers are without blame is simply illogical and shortsighted. Stop voting folks into office based on their 'name.' Start voting people into office that should be voted in. Not professional politicians that are nothing but lip servants.

[Ms_Idoru]

Well said.

The sad thing is, it's the big brand names people always buy. Because they have the money to get their names out everywhere.

Political parties are just another big brand, people vote for the brand names they know.

[Mire]

Who’s to blame?

I am going to place blame on the President of the United States George W. Bush who should have acted sooner.

The President should have, broken several procedures and federal laws usurping the authority of the Louisiana State’s Governor Kathleen Blanco and take control over the relief and rescue effort from day one.

I will also blame the President for not forseeing the up and coming disaster as he cut the budgets to the Army Corps of Engineers. Officials said that money targeted for the SELA project was reduced to $10.4 million, down from $36.5 million. [72] Some of the money would have gone into funding studies about the feasibility of upgrading the current levees to withstand Category 4 and 5 Hurricanes instead of just Category 3, although such studies would certainly not have been completed in time for Katrina even with the requested amount of funding.

I also blame the President for waiting for two days to visit the area of destruction where Katrina hit because he may have been able to really to do something. Even though all the security in the area was dismantling and his arrival during those first two days would have would have caused even more headaches and not helped the relief at all.

I blame him for ignoring the Posse Comitatus law which has been around since the Civil War.

I want to put blame on the Louisiana State Governor Kathleen Blanco for having to wait till she got a phone call from the President that insisted on her declaring a mandatory evacuation of the city of New Orleans.

I want to put blame on the Governor to have not had all the buses both school and city that were not used in the initial evacuation sent outside of the projected area the hurican was predicted to hit. I want to also blame her for not confiscating all the privately held boats and ordering the owners of said boats to get them out of Lake Pontchartrain to a safe place to use incase of a flood which did happen.

I also want to blame the Governor for not appropriating funds to increase the levei system structure and instead waited on the Federal Government to do it.

I also want to blame the Governor for not getting proper supplies to the designated evacuation sites in time to sustain them for a elongated time incase of a major flooding which did occur.

I also want to blame the Governor for not allowing the President to take complete control of the situation, in fact, I want to blame her for not insisting the President take complete control of the state during this time of crisis.

I want to blame Mayor Ray Nagin for not declaring the mandatory evacuation a day earlier and giving time for more citizens to get out of the city and to a safe distance out of harms way.

I want to blame the Mayor for not ordering the buses at his disposal and get as many people out of the city before the Hurricane hit. He should have declared Marshal law and ordered all the police to drag anyone and everyone out of their houses and load them up on the hundreds of now flooded buses by gun point if necessary.

I also want to blame the Mayor for not ordering the Police or any other sort of security to be at the evacuation sights to avoid and make sure no rapes, killings or other criminal activities happened.

I also want to blame the Mayor for not making sure the evacuation sights he declared were properly supplied with food, water and other needed items for a sustained stay incase of major flooding.

I want to blame the FIMA director for dropping the ball and not knowing where ever single sight was, how many were there and if they did or did not have supplies to last them till help could arrive.

I want to blame the director for not having enough pull with the President and Governor to get help in sooner.

I want to blame the Coast Guard, the Navy, the National Guard, the Marines, the Army and the Air Force for not following proper procedures, and instead acting as they should have acted in quick full response regardless of who was in charge or not.

I want to blame the Media for standing around, reporting the news instead of getting all of their vans and evacuating the people themselves. Instead, they just stood by and reported what was happening.

I want to blame the Media for reporting mis-information with out confirming the facts of any stories before the reported it. I also want to blame the Media for encouraging the looters and criminals by giving excuses to them instead of calling them what they were.

I want to blame the Weather Service who while reported the storm could not predict the exact spot it would hit nor have yet to invent a way to prevent such catastrophes.

I want to blame the Poor for being poor and not being able to get out when told to get out, and the Rich who did not pick up the poor who were not able to get out.

I want to blame everyone who continues to try to apologize or criticize the efforts of all involved as well as blame everyone and anyone who tries to politicize this whole thing.

I want to blame everyone who either didn’t grab their keys to go and rescue people, everyone who has yet to donate to Red-cross, everyone who is sitting at home reading this instead of down at your local community center helping out any one who needs it. I want to blame everyone who has yet offered a place for the refugees to live yet, and I want to blame everyone who went on a holiday this past weekend instead of going through their closets for cloths for the people who now find themselves with nothing (even those who didn’t have anything to begin with).

I want to blame myself, for point fingers when I could have done so much more in the amount of time I wrote this.

[Darth Bootay]

Bah! I'm done reading this thread. It's making me understand why I dislike people in general and making me like some individuals even less. Some of you are neither as cute or clever as you seem to think you are.

[Ms_Idoru]

And apparently...


Black people "loot"

While

White people "find"

0.o