THANK YOU MODDERS YOU HAVE FOOKED US ALL!

[Nexeus]

Okay, so in the recent lights of the San Andreas Hot Coffee Mod, where the game had sexual content in it, and a few hackers, decided to turn the game into an even more explicit game, the war hounds have been unleashed. Unleashed to you ask? The Sims 2! http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/22 ... 29609.html

I want to take a moment to all of the modders whom have decided to f00k us all and add these nude patches, enhancements, etc, rather than using your own creative geniouses and create your own p0rn game. Rather than that, you like to mod current games, which is cool and all, drive the contraversay further up on the gaming industry which is getting even more heat than say the movie or television industry because you cannot find pr0n on the net. Mind you some nude mods are cute and nice and all, but for jesus christ, calm your fekking selves!

[Psyloche]

edit: bleh, just found something:
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/07/20 ... 29500.html

The dork(s) suceeded.

Quote:

After percolating for weeks, the Hot Coffee controversy has finally boiled over. Today, Take-Two Interactive announced that as the result of an investigation by the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB), all versions of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas will now bear an AO for Adults Only rating for "Blood and Gore, Intense Violence, Strong Language, Strong Sexual Content, [and] Use of Drugs

Feel sorry for the poor devs getting their work fubared in this manner.

[brudus_maximus]

yes this really sucks ass for the GTA developers. I'll admit if this was an open feature in the game that you could plainly access I wouldn't be so upset about it. But the fact that it is something that you can in no normal way access in the game, you must use an external source to get to it.

All it comes down to is votes. This is a soft, easy target for clinton to go after.

[Meenstreek]

yes this really sucks ass for the GTA developers. I'll admit if this was an open feature in the game that you could plainly access I wouldn't be so upset about it. But the fact that it is something that you can in no normal way access in the game, you must use an external source to get to it.

It's not an external source. If you read further, it says that it's on the console(PS2) game too.

However, Rockstar's statement did little to extinguish the fires of controversy. Soon, reports began to surface that console versions of San Andreas contained code for the sex minigame. Late last week, GameSpot editors unlocked the code from a PlayStation 2 copy of San Andreas bought in October 2004, using an Action Replay Max device and a series of cheat codes. Since console games are written on unalterable DVDs and cheat codes cannot introduce new content, the fact the minigame was playable at all means it was included in the original PS2 San Andreas, albeit hidden.

[Decavolt]

Rockstar Games are the real fuckups here. Thanks to them concealing something that explicit (with full knowledge and understanding of how many GTA modders are out there), then lying about it being in there at all and blaming the modders for it, all the legistlators can now use this case as massive ammunition to pass any and all video game restriction laws they want. And they most certainly will. The only people to blame here are Rockstar for handling the whole thing in such a shitty manner.

I have no problem whatsoever with them putting easter eggs (i.e. hidden features) in their games, but they absolutely knew it would be uncovered and shouldn't have tried to play the victim when it was.

(edit -- and another thing...)
What really gets to me about this whole situation is that GTA is in no possible way appropriate for kids, even without the hidden sex-features. If people would actually PARENT their fucking children, this sort of thing would never be a problem. Instead, we'll have more laws and more restrictions just so that parents don't have to take any goddamn responsibility for the life they created.
And people wonder why I'd love it if the sun went supernova tomorrow...

[brudus_maximus]

However, Rockstar's statement did little to extinguish the fires of controversy. Soon, reports began to surface that console versions of San Andreas contained code for the sex minigame. Late last week, GameSpot editors unlocked the code from a PlayStation 2 copy of San Andreas bought in October 2004, using an Action Replay Max device and a series of cheat codes. Since console games are written on unalterable DVDs and cheat codes cannot introduce new content, the fact the minigame was playable at all means it was included in the original PS2 San Andreas, albeit hidden.

It is true that it is in the PS2 version. There was still no way you could access it if you just had the game. You have to go buy one of those cheating devices, like the action replay, to be able to get to it.

[Tarryk]

I'm two-sided on the issue.

1. I agree that the current restriction laws are silly and need to be removed or changed dramatically. Just as I agree wholeheartedly that parents should parent, and not rely on laws to protect their children from what they believe to be too-liberal-minded content.

BUT

2. I can't feel bad for the developers. The content is there on the disc, they put it there deliberately, unedited, and available, knowing FULL WELL the consequences of such content (or at least they SHOULD have known). Yes, you have to get unlock codes to see it, but that doesn't change the fact that it's there. If a XXX movie was released with censor boxes that you could go online and download a code to remove, it would still be a XXX movie and sold with other XXX movies. That's not enough to warrant it being put in the R-rated section.

They dug their own pit, and putting the content in with the game was completely ruttin' stupid of them. Now they have to hack out their own code and re-release the game.

That's the way the laws work, boyz. We may not like it, but everybody's subjected to it, and you're not going to get special treatment. Next time you'll know better, eh?

[brudus_maximus]

I'm sure that the parents are quite alright with the foul language, drug use, gang war fare, running over of random people, chopping peoples heads off and then kicking them down the street,and stealing of government property is quite alright. But the C-grade sex that rockstar left out but some people discovered it (wich i'm pretty sure many reverse engineering, illegal under DMCA, and EULA aggrements were broken were broken in the process) thats just too much.

Geez, this makes me sick to my stomach. lets not worry about the parents who would buy their underage kid a M rated game. Its obviously the game developers fault for not going to each persons house who bought the game to make sure no kids were playing it.

Why don't we go ahead and sue Omni-tek for making the assault rifle i used to blow away some filty clanners the other day. hehe had to get a AO refrence in there, and i'm neutral

[Tarryk]

Sorry, Brudus, it makes me sick too, but I think this situation is removed from that one...I could be wrong, of course.

I say this because the game restriction has been there for a good long time. If it has adult content, it's put into the adult section, where only adults can buy it.

Yes, all parents should monitor their children and not expect game companies to do it. But the rating system is also a method to HELP parents do just that, because most parents -- in order to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table -- don't have time to go through every single game they buy to look for unsuitable content before their kid even plays it. The rating system is there so they have an idea what's on the disc/movie/cassette, so they can make a CHOICE whether or not to buy that for their kids, based on what they'd like their child to be subjected to.

That game was rated M by the ESRB, but it has hidden AO content on it. That's practically a crime in and of itself, and definitely finable. The fact that they aren't bankrupt from fines levelled by the justice system is, if anything, a VICTORY for those who believe in freedom of choice, and a loss for those who believe in regulation.

But the law is that no child may purchase a game with X-rated adult content unless their PARENT buys it for them. As much as I dislike the implication of such a restriction, I fully appreciate it's initial purpose. Let the parents raise the child, let society help the parents to allow priviledges to their child along with the means to moderate them. The rating system, as paradoxical as it may seem, is still absolutely necessary in our society.

The developers put in deliberate hidden content and broke the law by doing so, as they subverted parental moderation via the equivilancy to flat out lying. Yes, I think the game needed to be pulled and needs to be dev-nerfed to reacquire it's M rating.

[Gridfan]

That game was rated M by the ESRB, but it has hidden AO content on it.

Actualy, I suspect (RockStar marketing probably didn't know it even)
that the RockStar devs disabled the erotic scenes to ensure they could get that oh so desired M rating.

And as usual, due to time constraits, and marketing (and the roundtime needed to get a ESRB rating completed)
The simply didn't have time to physicaly remove the code.
(or rather comment it out at compile time)

As Tarryk said, Rockstar should know that fans of the series
has (and now in the present as well) tended to dissect and enhance the games.

So it was dumb of them to leave that content still there.

My guess is that someone internally at RockStar Games said
"We're never gonna get a M rating with that scene and minigame,
just move the camera to the outside of the building and skip the minigame, we don't have time to redo this whole section"

What I don't get is why that M (17+) rating is so desirable,
it would have sold just as well with a AO (18+) rating is my guess.
And ironicaly enough, San Andreas is 18+ in most other countries.
It is here in Norway, and it's a best seller as well.

The REALLY funny thing is that those nude patches modifications for most games tend to be made by teens, or very young adults,
rather than slimey mid fifty pervers as Hillary "I don't do cigars!" Clinton seem to believe.

I don't blame rockstar for creating such content, I welcome it. (altough I hated the love making minigame (never liked joystick wiggling or twich games)
I did find the scene very humourous, but after having seen it once,
i found it much morr enjoyable to drive cars.
Which may have been another reason why RockStar disabled the content before production.

What I do blame RockStar for is not actualy removing it.
(my bet is that during the "coffe scene" while you hear the sounds,
for all I know i those walls where to be made invicible you would see what goes on inside)
So I suspect the disabling was a last minute thing just before they sent it to be rated, on the advice of their own rating advisor most likely.

What really rubs me the wrong way if how Clinton and the darn preacher/politician etc attack RockStar this way.

This could spooke companies a lot.
It could ean the death to modding as we know it,
why? Cause they may be afraid to leave "hidden" content.
(wether it's obscene, sexual, explicit, funny, or fully harmless cute bunnies stuff)
So dev codes might vanish, being able to change or make custom skins/clothing may not be possible, being able to replace characters with custom ones may not be possible,
if Clinton and others like her get their will, they want absolute content control, which really scares me. Fredom of speech and artistic expression wave goodbye.

Btw! Isn't the ESRB making money on this?
Rockstar having to get the game re-rated would mean they have to pay ESRB again to re-rate it or?

And I really wonder why politicians and other people seem to attack that game, is there another election of sorts around the corner again? Sheesh!


This is how it should have been!

"Hotcoffe patch, blabla"
"ESRB: is this true?"
"RockStar: let us check"
"RockStar: oops, it's was disabled, but it was never removed no"
"ESRB: Fix it asap or you'll loose the rating. and existing copies must be labeled AO"
"RockStar: Right on it"

End of story. But noooo. Leave it up to the media and personal goal politicians to expose it to the world.
If they left it alone, fewer people would be aware of it.
My bet is the original print/manufactored batches will be selling like hotcakes now and sold out soon.

Some people say that any publicity is good publicity,
but I'm sure even RockStart could have done without this particular publicity.

Another sad thing is, the ESRB will demand full disclosure of ALL content.
That means devloper cheats/codes, hidden jokes and features,
some which only get unlocked after several playthrus in games
and so on may now be removed from future games.

This is sad cause it can be so fun to use the devcheats after you have played thru a game.
(or you suck at playing so much (me) that after a day trying to get thru that really hard level you just have to enable god mode to survive)
Or unlock bonus content, or on the edge humour and other stuff devs leave around in their games for their own "inside joking" or between them and the beta tester teams or Quality Assurance teams.
Or sometimes as hiddens stuff for the realy dedicated fans out there!
I hope his blows over really fast in the media, and the politicians using this as a lever for their cariier quickly move to something else that is bad topic of the day.

*Agitated*

[Tarryk]

What I don't get is why that M (17+) rating is so desirable,
it would have sold just as well with a AO (18+) rating is my guess.

That's a misconception I think, G. Sales would very likely have stunk with an AO rating, because they would not be carried in 99% of the major retail companies and because even teens who did know about it wouldn't get access to it, and parents certainly wouldn't buy such a rated game for their kids.

Actualy, I suspect (RockStar marketing probably didn't know it even)
that the RockStar devs disabled the erotic scenes to ensure they could get that oh so desired M rating.

You're 100% correct, because that's exactly what this is about. But the fact remains that the content was ON the disc. How much work one must put in to access the content is never a factor in the rating of the content's existence.

----

Right now, with all the facts I'm aware of, the only thing I see this "spooking" companies into is obeying the gorram law. You don't make a jigsaw puzzle of a Hustler centerfold and then sell it as teen-rated content just because the puzzle's tough. Better still, you don't hide a XXX nude on the backside of a bikini poster without full content disclosure to the buyer.

[Jugsmalone]

Well Ill tellyu I for one am glad tohave rattings on games ... My grandson is 11 and has been begging his parents for grand theft auto. theyare hard working and try to give thier kids everything but they dont play or have time to play video games so they ask me ... I only can tell them wht i hear inthe forums and thankfully i do hear enough that even tho i havent played the game i know its not right for him... I think at times he wishes old grammy would keep her mouth shut but ohh well... the packageing is what catches the kids eyes.. but kids today are far more knowledgeable in code craking and gameing than i ever could dream of becomeing and if thier is a cheet thier ging to use it. Do you think thier going to unwrap it and than play it and go tell thier parents hey guees wht i just got a patch to nudity NO WAY they wilcertainly show all thier syblings and friends tho .. A PROPER RATEING IS A MUST in todays busy world it helps parents to parent.

[FoxyJama]

What I don't get is why that M (17+) rating is so desirable,
it would have sold just as well with a AO (18+) rating is my guess.

Actually, the rating has a HUGE affect on the retail sales, because Walmart, Target, Best Buy and Gamestop do not carry AO rated games. These stores are the behemoths of retail video game sales, and if they aren't carrying and marketing your games for you, they won't sell.

[Psyloche]

i tracked down an picture of the game crack, and whats seen is a woman lying in a mad pose with head on floor, she wear a bikini with a t-shirt, and her feet is on chair, where a guy sits with his feet on chair, and do push up movements on girl.

the girl animation got a bullet wound with no blood effects on top, so its white, and is arrow up/down things to make guy do "moves" on girl, who is lying as on floor, propped as a thingy of wood and parts of her feet go trough the guy.

The guy sits as on ground floor, doing push ups in wimp fashions with knees below his button, knee join in 90 degree angle.

There is text on it, who is saying "yes, yes, you are my man" and such things.

essentially, its a guy doing push up PE moves on top of grapics of a dead girl with bullet wound.

[Zephem]

Okay, are any of you familiar with GTA and it's history?

This game has been around for years, seeing as the current version we have today is basicly GTA3 with a total conversion and some mods.

GTA and GTA2 managed to get banned for sales in the UK a few years ago. It was that explicit. GTA2 was highly pirated on the internet because there was a great number of people who couldn't buy it.

BTW, GTA2 is a great game.

Rockstar games isn't a stranger to controversey. They like it. It sells games.

AO has traditionally been the rating here in the US that means death for a game. That's why everyone tries their best to not get that rating. A number of stores have policies where they won't sell the game if it has the AO rating. This can kill or make a game.

The problem is that GTA:SA was a game that many people were waiting for. The previous games (GTA3, GTA:VC) were top sellers and although they had controversy, the momentum behind them was enough to ensure that GTA:SA would probably be the best selling game out of all 3.

To be honest, look at the description of the mature rating and the adult only rating. The only difference between them is that mature rating has the age of 17 shown, and adult only has the age of 18 shown. Oh, and there's also something in the adult only description that says that the sexual and violent scenes are longer lasting than the ones in the previous game.

Lawmakers in the US have been talking about ONE game for the past several years, and that's GTA. GTA has been a political scape goat. I can understand why, but freedom to everyone to create what they want.

The problem here isn't that Rockstar is making these games. The problem is that the retail chains are selling them to minors. That the ESRB ratings are ineffective because they are not being enforced by retail chains. 13 year old kids were probably able to buy GTA:SA. Parents weren't paying attention to the ratings because they are too lazy to get interested in what their kids play or do. This is not Rockstar's fault, even if they put the mini-game in or not. It's not a matter of current laws having a problem or rating systems being ineffective. It's a matter that parents want to outsource the raising of their children, and laws are the easiest way to do that.

[Psyloche]

i have played gta1 and 2, unusual games, but the devs would never allow cheat codes to allow ppl do sex, whats shown is a guy with pants on do puch ups on top of an girl, it looks ridiculous, bad. see here:

http://www.hrej.cz/sshotindex.php?g=gta ... =4230.jpeg

if anyone dont want to see it, its using parts of diffferent women, or something, its plain bad looking, and show a man doing puch ups, and a wonan lying show under.
if this link is against the rules im apoligying, but its so bad looking i think it look like a plane crash of a game hack, with clothes on, and the girl looks like a mutated dwarf.

[Tarryk]

The problem here isn't that Rockstar is making these games. The problem is that the retail chains are selling them to minors. That the ESRB ratings are ineffective because they are not being enforced by retail chains.

The problem certainly isn't the lack of enforcement, I think, but rather the style of enforcement. Anything rated M or lower gets sold to anyone, and anything rated AO doesn't get sold at all. That way the chain employees don't have to worry about a thing. I agree, that's flat-out stupid.

But it boils down to the one big fact: Rockstar Games KNOWS this. They know full well that the hidden content is enough to give them an AO rating, and they should have known full well that they were breaking the law by keeping it and hiding it from ESRB just to get the M rating. There is no pleading ignorance, here.

Yes, the system sucks. It's the government's fault that I have to pay huge taxes, but it's my own damn fault that I can't manage my money well enough to keep myself from going broke because of it. Same rules apply here. They can blame the system til they're blue in the face, but that's not an excuse to plead ignorance about that system, they gotta play by the rules like everyone else.

[Psyloche]

tarryk, i think as a programmer, since i got about 10 years of looking into all sort of mad things(computer geek at school), and when i see on the grapics, i realize the hacker made a hip for the girl with the naked shoulders of a man, the boobs of her is halfway between her four shoulders, and none of the arms or feet belong to her, and t-shirt dont fit good.

If one take randon things from a 500mb library and make up something new, is it the fault of the coders?

This is exacly what all expect of them, who is the reason noone belive them, and that make them maybe loose 50m dollar, and have already lost 1m dollar now.

[Gridfan]

That wasn't "hacked" Psyloche, what you are looking at is code and model animation that was created and then ditched and disabled, way before QA (Quality Assurance) even got to review it's quality.
It's a unfinished scene/mini game.

The only mistake here as Tarryk pointed out is that RockStar either knowingly (or possibly unknowingly) released a game that had physical content beyond the ESRB 17 rating.
Most likely QA or the internal testing team, or the devs got yelled at over this. And I'm sure RR will redo some of their internal procedures
so they can track and submit to ESRB exactly what will be released.
(I'm not even sure if the ESRB rating is given after the GOLD version of a game is complete (GOLD indicates basicaly the master for the public release)
or if ESRB allow rating games that are unfisnished (technically, but not content wise, remember tweaking and debugging is a lengthy process)

Anybody know if RR has given any further public statements on this?

Heh and I kinda agree with ya Nexeus, it does seem like parents these days (even here) tend to
"let the system take care of our kids, we are far to busy making money"
Thats a dangerous trend indeed,

Now what happen to that Parent License idea someone came up with years and years ago?

[Psyloche]

gridfan, id agree if it werent for two things:
-the girl look like she is made from 5 different persons:
---torso is square, hip to shoulder compared to sideways.
---arms is loose
---her tea shirt dont cover all to side down, and arms is uneven
---boobs is on stomach, 40-50 cm in real world meashures too long down.
---her feet isnt attatched to hip part ok.
---the boob hanging out of side of stomach's side tea shirt edge,it isnt
attatched to her properly, its a clipping line there across whole body.
---head seems loose.
---shoulders seems broken, its no visible shoulders on her, just a jagged edge.
---her feet is inside his body partly.

-she got bullet wound.