I disagree that fantasy sucks, as a whole. The people who produce games, campaigns, and any other form of media with this are the problem. They do not encourage growth away from the beaten road, and all you have is the same old, same old setting.
Medieval Europe, with hints of a far-east and near-east mixed in. Honestly, why do they stick with the same old setting? Why can't we have a fantasy game that encorporates persian or indian mythology? Or Ancient fantasy, where your deities are not just faceless divinity but actually interact with the people? In most cases, fantasy was made into a synonym for the Middle ages.
But no. Instead of trying something new like so many Sci fi and Cyberpunk developers have, most fantasy designers remain with Tolkien's creation, which might have roxxored for him, but doesn't mean it'll roxxor for everyone else.
On the flipside, what if every Sci Fi MMORPG was a knockoff of Star wars, or star trek. It would suck as well, wouldn't it? I walk away whenever I encounter a game like that. Why AO And Planetside attracted me. One was like halo and starship troopers without the aliens, and the other was a cyberpunk look at what society could be like in thousands of years.
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Truth in MMORPG Fads (warning: insulting rant)
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by Zephem » Thu Nov 18, 2004 2:01 pm
Ahh, I almost forgot.
Asheron's Call. I dunno if you've played it before, Tarryk. You might have, you might not have.
This game was supported by Microsoft for a few years, before they pulled out of MMORPGs entirely (I'd bet pigs will fly before you see a Shadowrun MMO).
It's a fantasy game that was done right IMO. No elves. No orcs. No dwarves. No hobbits. Just a bunch of humans with different ethnicities in a magical world.
Yes, you have creatures that aren't human, and that's great.
I also think that the customizability of the game because of it's skill based system is highly more complex and detailed than AO's. AO is cool, and a very complex game, but it isn't anything compared to AC's system.
In fact, AC also has a better loot system. That, and the loot isn't restricted to one look. You can change the colors of most of the items in the game. This provides some awesomeness.
Add to the fact that EVERY SINGLE MONTH there is a massive update to the game, including changes to the landscape (the winter months have snow on the ground, and as the months move towards it, you see fall colors and leaves falling and beginning of snow on the ground up until the major snow days, and then progressively changes as the months progress afterwards). Not just changes in the way things work, or additional features or content. Also the storyline progresses along. You can read back to the beginning of the game, all the way to today. The amount of lore in this game blows everything out of the water. Really, in my opinion, AC stands in its own class apart from everything else. You have the single player game. For example, when I was Norm Kahn in AC, I would go into the Olthoi horde (Giant bugs that enslaved all the humans of the world) and I could take on maybe 30 of them at a time if I had the right equipment, and skills. Also, as I'm fighting them, and gaining experience, the skills used gain experience every successful hit. After a few more minutes they respawn and it happens again.
That's just one example. The types of characters are limitless and everyone is unique. Skill based system allows everyone to choose whatever they want as their skills in the beginning. You can also level with crafting and such, just crafting can get you up in levels from the experience from succesfully crafting items.
Anyway, i'll stop blubbing on. The main hook I had for this game was the scale of it at the time. The entire game world when I first signed up was about the size of Rhode Island. It took many many many (like 17) hours with a new character to run from one side of the world to the other. It's just massive. Also, there are no zones unless you go inside dungeons, so there's no loading unless you use portals or dungeons. It's insane.
Asheron's Call. I dunno if you've played it before, Tarryk. You might have, you might not have.
This game was supported by Microsoft for a few years, before they pulled out of MMORPGs entirely (I'd bet pigs will fly before you see a Shadowrun MMO).
It's a fantasy game that was done right IMO. No elves. No orcs. No dwarves. No hobbits. Just a bunch of humans with different ethnicities in a magical world.
Yes, you have creatures that aren't human, and that's great.
I also think that the customizability of the game because of it's skill based system is highly more complex and detailed than AO's. AO is cool, and a very complex game, but it isn't anything compared to AC's system.
In fact, AC also has a better loot system. That, and the loot isn't restricted to one look. You can change the colors of most of the items in the game. This provides some awesomeness.
Add to the fact that EVERY SINGLE MONTH there is a massive update to the game, including changes to the landscape (the winter months have snow on the ground, and as the months move towards it, you see fall colors and leaves falling and beginning of snow on the ground up until the major snow days, and then progressively changes as the months progress afterwards). Not just changes in the way things work, or additional features or content. Also the storyline progresses along. You can read back to the beginning of the game, all the way to today. The amount of lore in this game blows everything out of the water. Really, in my opinion, AC stands in its own class apart from everything else. You have the single player game. For example, when I was Norm Kahn in AC, I would go into the Olthoi horde (Giant bugs that enslaved all the humans of the world) and I could take on maybe 30 of them at a time if I had the right equipment, and skills. Also, as I'm fighting them, and gaining experience, the skills used gain experience every successful hit. After a few more minutes they respawn and it happens again.
That's just one example. The types of characters are limitless and everyone is unique. Skill based system allows everyone to choose whatever they want as their skills in the beginning. You can also level with crafting and such, just crafting can get you up in levels from the experience from succesfully crafting items.
Anyway, i'll stop blubbing on. The main hook I had for this game was the scale of it at the time. The entire game world when I first signed up was about the size of Rhode Island. It took many many many (like 17) hours with a new character to run from one side of the world to the other. It's just massive. Also, there are no zones unless you go inside dungeons, so there's no loading unless you use portals or dungeons. It's insane.
Last edited by Guest on Thu Nov 18, 2004 4:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Zephem - Posts: 520
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by Tacz » Thu Nov 18, 2004 3:57 pm
Im playing Asherons Call right now. In fact, I'm patching it as we speak. Awesome game. Very simple, too, in that you can just sit down and start playing, and then learn the more advanced stuff about skills laer.
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by Mumon » Thu Nov 18, 2004 5:55 pm
Tacz wrote:...patching it as we speak.
Time for an AO patch. I like downloading patches and I don't think I've downloaded one in a while. They need to hurry up and just do something that requires patching :p
(Kioko drew that.)
The crazy Cow Monster
(I should make a D&D monster of my self that is good for a party of six lvl 20 characters.)
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by Ashval » Thu Nov 18, 2004 6:07 pm
Social element of AO aside, AC remains my all-time favorite MMORPG. It amazes me that so many have come out since, and never picked up on, or improved, what AC did so bloody well.
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by Lauri » Thu Nov 18, 2004 7:28 pm
It is a real shame that some of the greatest parts of two massively awesome MMORPGs were never "recreated". AC's in-depth lore and major amount of content updates, and UO's feeling of an actual real world(or even level-less gameplay).
I just don't understand sometimes! lol
I just don't understand sometimes! lol
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by Laerena » Fri Nov 19, 2004 12:48 am
Ok... Keep in mind that this is coming from someone who has played far too many table top games in her lifetime....
I used to be one of those die hard "if its not fantasy I won't play it!!" types.... Then I got introduced to Rifts, White Wolf, Shadowrun, Morrow Project, and Cyberpunk.... I ordered WoW... will probably try it for a month, then get bored of it the same way i did with EQ... No i'm not even going to come close to trying EQ2....
I have say, while I love doing pen and paper rps that are fantasy... The computer game ones that i've played have all sucked.... I got bored of NWN in 2 months... Bored of EQ in less than half that time.... hence why i'm not trying "guild wars" or "EQ2" even though the graphics on both look amazing...
I have been converted.... and I owe it all to a friend that said "Tough... We're playing something different tonight" when it came to table top.... and to another friend who dragged my arse into AO and made me an addict.... Tarryk: AMEN!!! give me a Cyberpunk/Shadowrun MMO and I'll be in heaven.... I'll make a "Fixer" there
BTW Nex: I think the game series you were thinking of with the Technomage and the elves etc was either Shadowrun or RIFTS... both fit the bill....
I used to be one of those die hard "if its not fantasy I won't play it!!" types.... Then I got introduced to Rifts, White Wolf, Shadowrun, Morrow Project, and Cyberpunk.... I ordered WoW... will probably try it for a month, then get bored of it the same way i did with EQ... No i'm not even going to come close to trying EQ2....
I have say, while I love doing pen and paper rps that are fantasy... The computer game ones that i've played have all sucked.... I got bored of NWN in 2 months... Bored of EQ in less than half that time.... hence why i'm not trying "guild wars" or "EQ2" even though the graphics on both look amazing...
I have been converted.... and I owe it all to a friend that said "Tough... We're playing something different tonight" when it came to table top.... and to another friend who dragged my arse into AO and made me an addict.... Tarryk: AMEN!!! give me a Cyberpunk/Shadowrun MMO and I'll be in heaven.... I'll make a "Fixer" there
BTW Nex: I think the game series you were thinking of with the Technomage and the elves etc was either Shadowrun or RIFTS... both fit the bill....
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by Chronita » Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:31 am
Funny how these debates pop up around each new MMO release
Personally I enjoy both fantasy and sci-fi, but not entirely - only if it is well done. AO, despite it's many faults, has several well-done features. Most of the Star Wars saga is well done, and I enjoy it too. SWG was not well done however, and i stayed far away from it after being in the beta from phase 2 :p On the flip side Lineage was a groundbreaking game with a huge following (like 100x AO's) that still goes strong today. Lineage 2 however sucked, and I stayed away from it as well
The point I'm trying to make is I enjoy the product based on its merits rather than its stereotypes. IMO anyone who gets too wound up into stereotypes in any facet of life is not going to live to their fullest. If orcs and elves are not your thing then thats fine. However these ppl that say a certain product is crap just b/c it has things like orcs and elves in it are just being pig-headed. Tarryk like you said it is your opinion and that in itself is fine - you are still on my good list. What I cant get over however is these ppl who go into an arguement (several on the AO boards for example) armed with that opinion only and try to rationally prove why WoW or some other new fantasy game sucks. You just cant argue with those type of ppl, and when stuff like that goes on I usually regress back to reflecting on the future of humanity :p I mean, it is bad enough the radical portion of the conservative right in this country adopts these sorts of flawed logistical stances and will not budge, but now I have to put up with them in my MMO forums too? It's a freakin game world ppl!
*rant mode off*
Whew, with that over now, I must say that if you throw away generic fantasy disdain and "cartoonish" graphic gripes and evaluate WoW just on the merits, it stands up amazingly in the MMO world for a product not even released yet. What amazes me is the combination of 1) stability and completeness and 2) just plain fun. I can see John Q MMO pulling maybe one of those off at release, but both? I really dont think it has been done before on a massive scale IMO. Being a frequent beta tester and MMO philosoph I truly appreciate what WoW is about to do on release day.
Now, will it be the end-all of MMOs? Will it continue to be fun after 6 months? No one knows, not now for WoW or for any MMO that will ever be released. The only thing we have to judge WoW on is the here and now, and to me it's looking pretty damn good.
P.S. - One thing I like to point out with the whole WoW = overdone fantasy discussion is history. Yes basic concepts are overdone, but it what you offer past the basic stuff that will make or break a product, and history/backstory can typically pull it off. WoW has 3 titles + expansions + novels and I think over a decade of total existance to add to its world. In the same manner, the LotR saga presents the same stereotypical world per se, yet has a TON of backstory + wonderful prose to back it up. The recent LotR movies with only the generic fantasy stuff would never have won an oscar on its own. The reason it was the first fantasy to win best picture was the story and the storytelling, plain and simple.
Personally I enjoy both fantasy and sci-fi, but not entirely - only if it is well done. AO, despite it's many faults, has several well-done features. Most of the Star Wars saga is well done, and I enjoy it too. SWG was not well done however, and i stayed far away from it after being in the beta from phase 2 :p On the flip side Lineage was a groundbreaking game with a huge following (like 100x AO's) that still goes strong today. Lineage 2 however sucked, and I stayed away from it as well
The point I'm trying to make is I enjoy the product based on its merits rather than its stereotypes. IMO anyone who gets too wound up into stereotypes in any facet of life is not going to live to their fullest. If orcs and elves are not your thing then thats fine. However these ppl that say a certain product is crap just b/c it has things like orcs and elves in it are just being pig-headed. Tarryk like you said it is your opinion and that in itself is fine - you are still on my good list.
What I cant get over however is these ppl who go into an arguement (several on the AO boards for example) armed with that opinion only and try to rationally prove why WoW or some other new fantasy game sucks. You just cant argue with those type of ppl, and when stuff like that goes on I usually regress back to reflecting on the future of humanity :p I mean, it is bad enough the radical portion of the conservative right in this country adopts these sorts of flawed logistical stances and will not budge, but now I have to put up with them in my MMO forums too? It's a freakin game world ppl!
*rant mode off*
Whew, with that over now, I must say that if you throw away generic fantasy disdain and "cartoonish" graphic gripes and evaluate WoW just on the merits, it stands up amazingly in the MMO world for a product not even released yet. What amazes me is the combination of 1) stability and completeness and 2) just plain fun. I can see John Q MMO pulling maybe one of those off at release, but both? I really dont think it has been done before on a massive scale IMO. Being a frequent beta tester and MMO philosoph I truly appreciate what WoW is about to do on release day.
Now, will it be the end-all of MMOs? Will it continue to be fun after 6 months? No one knows, not now for WoW or for any MMO that will ever be released. The only thing we have to judge WoW on is the here and now, and to me it's looking pretty damn good.
P.S. - One thing I like to point out with the whole WoW = overdone fantasy discussion is history. Yes basic concepts are overdone, but it what you offer past the basic stuff that will make or break a product, and history/backstory can typically pull it off. WoW has 3 titles + expansions + novels and I think over a decade of total existance to add to its world. In the same manner, the LotR saga presents the same stereotypical world per se, yet has a TON of backstory + wonderful prose to back it up. The recent LotR movies with only the generic fantasy stuff would never have won an oscar on its own. The reason it was the first fantasy to win best picture was the story and the storytelling, plain and simple.
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by Taimaischu » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:46 pm
I wonder why there hasn't been a MMORPG with classes like Demons, Imps, Vampires, Werewolves... I remember a mostly text based game but I'm not clear on the name... It was on gamestorm long time ago but I grew to dislike gamestorm. But I'd have to say I'm staying in AO until I see a halfling and a lizard creature together in mack's back room drooling over a Wookie Stripper doing the robot in a blue star trek uniform while drinking a bottle of Boone's Farm singing 'It's the end of the world as we know it' and still I probably wouldn't leave I'd bring in friends and have em ganked in a matter of minutes... 
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by Darth Bootay » Fri Nov 19, 2004 10:17 pm
I prefer my elves and orcs on the tabletop with lots of dice and Mountain Dew, thank you. They lose their appeal when their visuals leave my head and appear on a computer screen.
I've seen the WoW open beta, because the IRL BF is dorking with it. Nice water. But the humans look like sausages and the elves look like hairless, knuckledragging apes with big crescent moon ears. The only remotely attractive race are the undeads. Yeh, they get better dance emotes, but it looks to me like they only get ONE rather than our small host of uninspired ones that you can chain together to make something sexy and excellent and unique.
And oh yeah... every time he sits down to play, he incessantly bitches about the imbalance in the classes and the very limited options each race and class has.
/shrug
Personally, I vastly prefer that FC simply improve AO's graphics engines, add some more avatar models (perhaps letting us do nifty stuff like choose different hair, perhaps?), give us a few more keen emotes and FIX THE BLOODY BUGS! Yeah... But that's MY preference.
I've seen the WoW open beta, because the IRL BF is dorking with it. Nice water. But the humans look like sausages and the elves look like hairless, knuckledragging apes with big crescent moon ears. The only remotely attractive race are the undeads. Yeh, they get better dance emotes, but it looks to me like they only get ONE rather than our small host of uninspired ones that you can chain together to make something sexy and excellent and unique.
And oh yeah... every time he sits down to play, he incessantly bitches about the imbalance in the classes and the very limited options each race and class has.
/shrug
Personally, I vastly prefer that FC simply improve AO's graphics engines, add some more avatar models (perhaps letting us do nifty stuff like choose different hair, perhaps?), give us a few more keen emotes and FIX THE BLOODY BUGS! Yeah... But that's MY preference.
"Ke barjurir gar'ade, jagyc'ade kot'la a dalyc'ade kotla'shya."
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v1.19 (working with 15.7 now!)
by Oddysee » Sat Nov 20, 2004 1:53 am
I'm glad there isn't a vamp game... If there's one thing I'm really sick of, it's all these people who whenever they RP, can't think of anything but "I'm a vampire!".
I dunno... It might be all the live players I've ment in my time and the ocassional bad RP'er who couldn't say more than "I'm a vampire" who've messed up my vision of this, but the problem is as such:
Vampires are super natural beings. They can throw cars, are immortal, and can kill anyone they please... In short, it's too damn easy and there are no risks. I find the only people who play Vamp's are the people who want total power. The same people who use cheats in FPS'ers.
I'm sorry to say this, and I appologise if I offend anyone... But I find it weak.
To each his own, and I will never comment anything in game or ruin their RP... But I will leave as the whole "you can't hurt me but I could end your life now, I just choose not to cus I'm nice and mercifull" crap is beginning to bug me.. Truth is, most of these people (not all) lack any kind of respect IRL. They seek aknowledgement and when people do not treat them with the respect they want, they make up for it in RP. There is nothing wrong with this, it's always been like that. We play mages because we can't do magic. We play Sci-Fi because our world doesn't have flying cars. All RP fills a gap in reality. I just can't be bothered filling this need for self glorification that others might have.
It's a game. I don't need this to get personal, I don't need your RL problems and I really don't need to be your vent. This might seem harsh, so be it.
I stopped RP'ing because of all the drama. How anyone could start a RL crisis conflict out of a game is beyond me. That's when the fine line between game and obsession is crossed...
I think that comment might have slightly thread-jacked this whole thing, so I'll send it back on course...
I'm gonna try WoW. Simple as that. I like the mass PvP and the fact that the PvP is (from a "this is as good as it will ever get when not basd on real skill" perspective) very well balanced!
Fantasy is a little harder. There are no stims or spindles, but tbh, I also find it rewarding. At least people aren't newbs at lvl 60 unlike some 200+'s I've met. Don't mind noobs... But I'd like them to not be noobs at some point... End game seems like a suitable point imo. So far SL has undermined that. But oh well, still love AO... And I WILL be back... Erh, tho I haven't left yet... Not gonna till WoW has been runnin for a bit and they've delt with the worst tweakings... Oh well...
Tm
I dunno... It might be all the live players I've ment in my time and the ocassional bad RP'er who couldn't say more than "I'm a vampire" who've messed up my vision of this, but the problem is as such:
Vampires are super natural beings. They can throw cars, are immortal, and can kill anyone they please... In short, it's too damn easy and there are no risks. I find the only people who play Vamp's are the people who want total power. The same people who use cheats in FPS'ers.
I'm sorry to say this, and I appologise if I offend anyone... But I find it weak.
To each his own, and I will never comment anything in game or ruin their RP... But I will leave as the whole "you can't hurt me but I could end your life now, I just choose not to cus I'm nice and mercifull" crap is beginning to bug me.. Truth is, most of these people (not all) lack any kind of respect IRL. They seek aknowledgement and when people do not treat them with the respect they want, they make up for it in RP. There is nothing wrong with this, it's always been like that. We play mages because we can't do magic. We play Sci-Fi because our world doesn't have flying cars. All RP fills a gap in reality. I just can't be bothered filling this need for self glorification that others might have.
It's a game. I don't need this to get personal, I don't need your RL problems and I really don't need to be your vent. This might seem harsh, so be it.
I stopped RP'ing because of all the drama. How anyone could start a RL crisis conflict out of a game is beyond me. That's when the fine line between game and obsession is crossed...
I think that comment might have slightly thread-jacked this whole thing, so I'll send it back on course...
I'm gonna try WoW. Simple as that. I like the mass PvP and the fact that the PvP is (from a "this is as good as it will ever get when not basd on real skill" perspective) very well balanced!
Fantasy is a little harder. There are no stims or spindles, but tbh, I also find it rewarding. At least people aren't newbs at lvl 60 unlike some 200+'s I've met. Don't mind noobs... But I'd like them to not be noobs at some point... End game seems like a suitable point imo. So far SL has undermined that. But oh well, still love AO... And I WILL be back... Erh, tho I haven't left yet... Not gonna till WoW has been runnin for a bit and they've delt with the worst tweakings... Oh well...
TmWill do naughty things for cake!
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by Sergeiovich » Sat Nov 20, 2004 8:15 am
I think the comic "Ctrl+Alt+Del" says all there is to say about "The Matrix Online"...
http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/?t=arc ... 2004-05-21
http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/?t=arc ... 2004-05-21
Yes, I have issues. And I am proud of every single one of them.
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by Boinky » Sat Nov 20, 2004 9:31 am
Heh, exactly! And not that age entirely enters into it, but I wonder how many gung-ho to play that game would say they were in high-school, middle-school, or less when the first Matrix movie came out!?
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by Dragonfruit » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:10 am
haha... teh m4tr1x 0nL1n3 yup... well I was looking forward to it... but now I'm reonsidering due to school and doubts on how it will be =p
however...
HL2!!!!!!!! OMGZ ITZ OUT!
yeah... I have given up on an ff7 like mmo... but I'm never going to think about going to a fantasy mmo.... YUCK... Rubi Ka is my favorite place so far.... and probably for the next couple years... I have been without an mmo for about a couple months now... alien invasion wasnt what I wanted =( niether was SL... the only thing I really liked doing in ao after both packs came out... was to just hang out alone in remote places... like hilltops in stret west or the mines in clondyke, or a static room in tir, sit down in a chair alone and listen to music or gsp, and talk to friends... just to be in the world was fun
nah I cant get that from any fantasy mmo...
however...
HL2!!!!!!!! OMGZ ITZ OUT!
yeah... I have given up on an ff7 like mmo... but I'm never going to think about going to a fantasy mmo.... YUCK... Rubi Ka is my favorite place so far.... and probably for the next couple years... I have been without an mmo for about a couple months now... alien invasion wasnt what I wanted =( niether was SL... the only thing I really liked doing in ao after both packs came out... was to just hang out alone in remote places... like hilltops in stret west or the mines in clondyke, or a static room in tir, sit down in a chair alone and listen to music or gsp, and talk to friends... just to be in the world was fun
nah I cant get that from any fantasy mmo...where is that thing anyways!
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by Tarryk » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:18 am
Sergeiovich wrote:I think the comic "Ctrl+Alt+Del" says all there is to say about "The Matrix Online"...
http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/?t=arc ... 2004-05-21
I haven't laughed that hard in a while, thank you.
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by Tarryk » Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:29 am
Okay....damnit....went reading through them, chuckle... chuckle... chuckle... OMGROFLMAO http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/?t=arc ... 2004-06-16
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