Rifle team suspended across america

[ShadeRaven]

some dude with a 22 shot a guy in the chest by accident and killed him on an indoor rifle range so Major general Thrasher has suspended rifle teams until further notice

[Oddysee]

[Disclaimer, this is NOT directed at anyone, it just made me think of som'n and I snapped]

Why do they even GIVE you live ammunition?
Remember what I said about being sure if it was a compliment? Even if he ment it that way, I'd never take it as one.
What good is a gun? WHY must you have a gun? What possible good can an instrument ment for nothing but killing possibly do? Who cares if it's just "harmless target practise". So are nukes when tested at sea. Doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't be bloody made.

Somewhere, at some point in time, someone fucked up big time and proclaimed the "right" to bear arms as a national decree... The right... Can you sense something wrong with this word? You have the right to bear an item with NO worldly function other than ending someones life. Right... What bloody right!?!

Why is it so hard to understand, I simply don't get it. The rest of the world does NOT have guns. They do NOT have thousands who are shot every year by accident or some sick puppy who turns out to be a failed abbortion... And yet, somehow, it is possible to reach the conclusion that it's not the guns that are the problem... It's som'n else that can't be explained. The guns are needed. To protect from the Evil[tm] that's out to destroy their way of life.
Don't try the whole "But Canada has guns" thing. Yeah they do, but I'm sorry to say this, Canada does NOT have the same issues America does. I'm not yank bashing, not at all, I'm just saying when we all KNOW there's a slight glitch in the national mentality, why keep the instrument of death?
"It's a right, our right to protect ourselves"
I bet the people who are shot every year feel real damn protected. That's what the bloody law inforcement agencies are for. Vigilanteism is, never will be, nor was it ever a very effective governmental policy.

Ban REAL guns. FFS it's not that hard. Let them keep all the bloody toys they like. Toys don't kill and they can play with them instead!
How it ever became a right to own and use something that cannot be used for other things that ending life, I will never understand. It's not like a knife. You can't cut bread with it. You can't cut robe or prepare a camp in the wild. You can't butter your bread.
It's not likea car. It wont take you to work and back. It wont allow you to visit places far away.
Heck it's not even like a chainsaw, axe, baseball bat or any other item that could possibly end a life.
It has no other purpose!!!

Tell me one other thing a gun can be used for. ONE thing that doesn't include killing someone, or shooting at a cardboard target, bettering ones aim, enhancing ones ability to more effecttivly kill someone... Just one, it's all I ask!






Tm

[Tacz]

The right to bear arms in the constitution is outdated. Its from when firearms were much less dangerous and people actually needed them to protect themselves from other sects of christianity who tried to harm them. There are many well documented occurances, but it never happens anymore.

[Coltess]

I believe the constitutional right to bear arms was meant to ensure that no one could set themselves up as the first king of America without the consent of the people.
Just my two cents worth.

[Oddysee]

*looks at the election*
I beg your pardon?






Tm

[Boinky]

Well I'm probably greatly mistaken, but the right to bear arms as handed down from our Founding Fathers probably had something to do with the fact that at the time they wrote that we didn't really have a Military, Police Force, or even akcnowledgement as a world Super-Power. Back then you pretty much had to protect yourself. Today you sue your government if you aren't protected.

[Nexeus]

Before and during the revolutionary war, the British were able to enter a persons house, particularly someone whom has a very cute daughter, and sleep there/do what they wanted. The home owner had no ability to protect themselves.

Today, people are able to carry guns in their house and outside shown without a problem. Yes it is legal to carry a glock .22 down the street as long as it is not concealed.

The law is not out of date... imagine, that that admendment was removed, any offical whom, by law, had the right to carry guns could enter a house if he wanted. It's not the law - it is what people do with the law. Be careful with your firearms, and that's why I really like riffle teams. They promote security with firearms, and how to use them properly.

As for this kid whom got shot and killed, I feel sorry for him and his family, I hope they do better, and I hope that this mistakes does not happen again.

[Oddysee]

I know... So why hasn't it been changed?
What's with the backwater idea that since it's in the constitution, it can never be changed... Ever!
If rules were never changed, we'd still punishing every crime with death, the bible would tell us to kill not let live and we'd be throwing rocks at our own shadows... Come to think of it... Not much has changed...






Tm

[Oddysee]

The law is not out of date... imagine, that that admendment was removed, any offical whom, by law, had the right to carry guns could enter a house if he wanted. It's not the law - it is what people do with the law. Be careful with your firearms, and that's why I really like riffle teams. They promote security with firearms, and how to use them properly.

We posted at the same time, I appologise for this double post...
Nex' I'm sorry but... Are you absolutely insane!?!?

The guns are needed. To protect from the Evil[tm] that's out to destroy their way of life.

Imagine, that that admendment was removed, any offical whom, by law, had the right to carry guns could enter a house if he wanted.

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about... How can you, being a grown person, still think this? What went wrong? No official can walk in and bloody rape anyone. It's like saying that the CIA is tapping everyones phones the entire world is a big conspiracy against you. That's right, you, everyone here is out to get you and you alone...

GET REAL!

There is no great evil lurking in the bushes, waiting to rape you or your loved ones... And if there was, it has a flippin gun too, cus your laws enforce it!

Rifle teams are a good thing!? They teach you how to safely use it? Use it for what? Target practise... So they teach you to "safely" aim it and shoot to hit what you want? My god now I feel better, because all these paranoid people who all think everyone is out to get them have now been taught to SAFELY aim a rifle at me and hit me between the eyes at 400 yards.

If you want safety, take up martial arts or boxing. Learn self defence. There ARE alternatives.
You don't need a gun. You NEVER need a gun. Even if it does save ONE life during a hold up, it kills thousands a year because you needed to protect yourself.. They were evil and out to get you.

I'm sure this kid who got shot must have been real evil. Cus he's not the only one is he...
Anyone who demanded the right to bear arms should have their votes withdrawn. They should not be allowed to have any influence of the future. We have enough deaths. The last thing we need is some paranoid naive trigger happy lunatic to add to the body count because he was exercising his right to bear arms and shoot the evil.

Get real!




Tm

[Vallikat]

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

This is the text of the 2nd Amendment. It susggest that Boinky's point of view is correct. But please take note of the words "well regulated". It means that this isn't or shouldn't be an anarchist society.

I, personally, don't like guns. Not in my house. I won't even touch one. ..(heh...just realized that might have something to do with Vallikat being who she is). But I am also not against the 2nd ammendment. I think its important for anyone who feels that they need a gun for their own personal protection, or to protect their family, or source of income (a shopkeeper to protect his shop) to be able to secure one. But I also think its important for it to be much more well regulated than it is currently. Its far too easy for anyone to get their hands on a gun in this world. I think you should be forced to go through proper training and background checks before they will give you a license or allow you to purchase a gun. I mean FFS we regulate the priviledge of driving much more carefully we do the right to bear arms. This makes no sense to me whatsoever.

However, then I look back at Shaderaven's post and it makes me feel sad and god help me, I'm about to agree with Oddy...at least to an extent, I think. Yes, it should be well regulated and yes proper training should be required. But why, why, why for the love of all that is holy would anyone in their right mind put a rifle with live ammunition in the hands of a 15 or 16 year old kid? I never thought for a million years when Shade said she made the rifle team that she meant that they use live ammo. I guess I can see it on a closed course with extreme controls in place. I mean even driver's ed cars have duel controls to prevent kids from wiping out themeselves, instructor, classmates, and innocent bystanders. I don't understand how on earth an accident like this can be allowed to happen. I guess this is more geezer rantings. But it bothers me to a great extent that this has occured. I'm sorry Shade. I know you won't agree with me. But frankly, I'm glad they are banning it. I hope that in the interim they take a good long look at this program and seriously overhaul it.

[Nexeus]

Oddy, I'm going to pull out a card on you I seldom do, but it's life and regardless of how you feel about this subject, I'm only using it as an example of how I still think this way.

Imagine, that that admendment was removed, any offical whom, by law, had the right to carry guns could enter a house if he wanted.

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about... How can you, being a grown person, still think this? What went wrong? No official can walk in and bloody rape anyone. It's like saying that the CIA is tapping everyones phones the entire world is a big conspiracy against you. That's right, you, everyone here is out to get you and you alone...

GET REAL!

Rodney King, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima.

Don't like the race card, well here's another card:

RAPE/Domestic Abuse

Don't like that, how about the riots in LA just about a decade ago, how were those people going to defend their own homes from a mob?

You are right Oddysee self defense is a way to protect yourself, but so are guns. I don't blame guns as much as I blame people. And I think that guns are a perfectly okay way, IN MY OPINION, to defend yourself, IN YOUR HOME!

Now what happened to this poor kid, is sad, and for people whom do well (like ShadeRaven) in these activities suffer because - and I agree here - but practicing with live ammunition isn't the safest thing to do in the world, but don't confuse what happened with this person, this 16 year old as a comment on the second admendment.

The citizens of the United States have a right to protect themselves by any means nessessary - but do not confuse what I'm saying. You have a right to have a weapon, and be smart about having a weapon, and take the consequences when something goes wrong. That goes along with that right.

[Oddysee]

You have racism, so do we. You have domestic abuse, so do we. You have X thousand people who get shot every year due to "self defence/gun mishaps", we do not. Yet somehow, our country has managed not to fall into some police state with no civil rights.
People have more rights here than where you are. We are a socialistic country. Not communistic but socialistic none the less. People have a right to free hospitals, education, health care, a roof over their heads and food everyday. These are danish civil rights and those who cannot ammend get help. We do NOT have the right to "protect" ourselves if this means ending other peoples lives. That is what the police force is for.
We have a right to self defence, we have a right to defend our homes... But the way you say it you sound as tho you're at war.
As though some invading army is closing in on your country. It verges on paranoia.
It sounds to me, as though you see "enemies" every where and this is what, again; in my eyes, causes the problems. When everyone looks at everyone else as potential assailants. Even the government... This medieval mentality from back in the dark ages where you had to defend yourself... Europe for one got past this point. We like to refer to it as: Civilisation.
I'd like to think America knows this word too? If you cannot get past the feeling that the world os out to get you, and that everyone is a potential enemy, then I fear for your people as a whole.
Leaving the most powerful position in the world in the hands of a country whose majority live in mortal fear every day. Who are raised in a fear culture and told that everyone is out to get them. Cannot ever be a good thing.
No matter how you twist and turn it. If you need an instrument made specifically for killing to live your life. Then something is wrong.
If you need to defend yourself that badly, all the time and everywhere, then something went horribly wrong!
Because the rest of the world doesn't seem to suffer from this. So all due to respect, but the problem must be with you.

I don't mean to point fingers. I'm simply saying that something is wrong. And it's not just because we're "different". Your neighbouring countries don't even have these problems. Nor do they worship guns. Devils advocate might be fun. But ultimately futile. They are the problem, not the solution.






Tm

[epiphonic]

Rodney King, Amadou Diallo, Abner Louima.

Don't like the race card, well here's another card:

RAPE/Domestic Abuse

Don't like that, how about the riots in LA just about a decade ago, how were those people going to defend their own homes from a mob?

yeah, were they gonna throw molotovs at the rioters and burn down their own homes? NO!

[epiphonic]

either way, gun control if anything is being LESSENED it seems, our defender of the free world did not want to renew the legislation banning assault rifles initally signed by clinton in 1994, so they are now legal to own. ---- aka AK-47s UZIs and the like .....wtf????

Read this article.... and to anyone who wants to defend these as hunting guns STFU!!!!

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5946127

These were designed to kill humans, and to kill them FAST in large numbers.

am i dumb, or is this still not renewed?

f**king nuts guys and gals, f**king nutz

[Sarienn]

This is just getting ridiculous. Obviously not everyone should have a gun. Now explain to me how you plan to get them away from the people that really don't need to have a gun: criminals.

Maybe Canada doesn't have the social problems the US does, but perhaps we have a few more 'bad guys' than you do? Its highly likely with populations roughly 293 million to 32 million. So I propose we ban all guns and appoint every citizen (adult & child) a police bodyguard. Or at the very least, a 3 man unit stationed at each house to cover 3 8 hour shifts.

And personally, while I realize martial arts and boxing are valuable self defense skills, I'd prefer not to pit them vs. a gun wielding criminal. Until the day a 911 call can 'beam' a cop to your house, its not much of a 'solution' either.

So please, tell me how we can get rid of all the guns, especially the ones in criminal hands, world-wide. I'd be for a gun-free,(war free, poverty free, hate free, hunger free) planet, just not sure how to accomplish it.

[Ichyro]

'When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns.'

To ban the possession of firearms will pretty much do nothing. Average citizens will be unable to own firearms, but criminals and those who seek weaponry to take lives will still find them, just on the black market.

The removal of personal weaponry has been connected with government opression for centuries. Feudal Japanese shoguns banned the possession of swords and other military arnaments by the population to prevent rebellion, the Nazi's removed the firearms from the jewish population as one of many steps to cripple any chance of fighting back.

I am not sure we are in a position to compare to either, but either group could not rely on the police or the government to protect them entirely. The right of self-defence is a right all of us deserve. That isn't the right to wait for the police to show up when a criminal is breaking into your house. It's a right of protection. No, that does not mean people can make their house into some military bunker (Thats taking it on the god damn extremes). Quite a large jump from simply having a gun in the house.

You can't expect perfected protection, but I can't see a single damned reason why someone having a handgun at home to protect his family and takes the precautions to prevent his children from getting their hands on it is going to lead to the downfall of western civilization?

Going to shrug off the rest of this. I wonder if some are actually after Americans, and not just the possession of firearms.

[Oddysee]

Food for thought.
How many people die every year from gun shots, not counting wars?
How many of these were intentional, and how many were "accidental"?
How could be hindered by removing guns?

Would this result in more deaths than it prevents?
I fail to see so. Ergo I deem it well worth it.
I know things have gotten so out of hand that it by now is impossible to reverse it. But honestly, guns will never ever solve anything. Only cause more death.

Criminals are going to get them anyway. True. But petty thugs are not.
Some will have them, I know this, but the ones that do are not out to get you or yours. It's too small time for anyone with the contacts to get the hands on guns if they were outlawed. Not worth the risk.
Besides, criminals rob, mug, rape and steal... You want the right to do that too? No? Then why is "But they have them" a reason to get one yourself?
Sure, it's for protection. Mate, if someone has a fire arm, and is intending to use it. And on you... They're gonna do so without you knowing... So you having a gun wouldn't change anything anyway.
That one time you get sloppy and leave it out, your grand child finds it and shoots your wife. Or your son whom you refuse to believe is mentally ill get's depressed and shoots up a whole school... That WILL change something.

Instruments of death are NOT something average people should have. There are too many grey zones, emotions and accident prone situations to make it a statistical reliability. It's just not safe. Nor is it wise.




Tm

[Tacz]

Oddy, I would like you to know something.

Per household, there are almost two times as many guns as in the U.S.
Yet, they have about 1/30th the amount of gun-deaths per year.
Gun control wont do it.

[Sarienn]

While we're at it, let's ban unpleasant thoughts too.

[epiphonic]

Besides, criminals rob, mug, rape and steal... You want the right to do that too? No? Then why is "But they have them" a reason to get one yourself?

..... okaaaay

and odysee the whole

Mate, if someone has a fire arm, and is intending to use it. And on you... They're gonna do so without you knowing... So you having a gun wouldn't change anything anyway.

WOW!!! dude!! OMG!! could you imagine every thing being THAT precalculated?
we'd have the murder rate of canada.

anyways, this thread has lost it's f**king steam