The WTF to End All Gaming WTFs...

[Darth Bootay]

I am just... floored.

I cannot stop asking myself "And WHO thought this would be a good idea?"

http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,63997,00.html

[Lauri]

Wow.

It's... Isometric. Badly done Isometric! That alone is horrifying!

But yes, I agree, Boo. While I have no qualms with online adult content.... "whoa!"

[Tarryk]

I am just... floored.

I cannot stop asking myself "And WHO thought this would be a good idea?"

I'm actually a little stunned that you would ask that, StBoo. Perhaps it's a gender-seperation issue here, but I think it's more of an observational standpoint.

Who would think this was a good idea, you ask?

The same sort of people who bring the world of gaming--and especially online gaming--to original levels of thought. The same sort of people that we need to continue the advancement of the adult MMO world into a truly unique social environment.

The world of MMORPG's started out as a game. But it was recognized as something much more. It's a social epilogue to the real world.

Chat forums were the combining of human minds without the limitations of physical posture to interefere. MUDs, MUSHs, and MOOs were the same, with the added ability to imply falsely created posture. MMOGs were the same, with the added ability to literally emulate posture, persona, demeanor, and anything related to the physical realities of social interaction.

And emulation is a wide-spread factor. Anything can, and therefore will, be emulated into an MMOG, on all levels of the human mind. This game is proof that there are truly dark levels of the human mind that still exist, and always will.

I for one praise games like this when they come out, the ones that explore true darkness. Not some prettied-up vampire/gothic "happy little dark game". Not some pampered "oo we have nudity we're bad" dark game. Truly dark, as in the subjects that you DON'T want to touch on. Why would I praise that, you ask?

Because it's games like that that will draw in those who crave those dark sides. It's games like that which, in our own teen-to-adult level games that we use for MUCH less emulated yet equally implied darkness, can point to for those with a truly dark mind to steer them away from our own vision of simulacrum.

A game like that doesn't appeal to me, because in my own mind it's sick and twisted. Yet I'm thankful for it, and would hope that anyone who wishes that level of dementia go there for their virtual lifestyle, if only to leave us be in ours.

[Darth Bootay]

My reaction to this is based on my own personal experience in gaming (online and off, text and gui) and writing, and the understanding I have reached of human nature. I, a mature and stable person of decent education and solid life experience, have difficulty with the idea of making a game of this nature available as MMOs are typically available.

A lot of the things I write about offline are fairly horrendous by common standards, and there are themes in my RP fiction that more than slightly brush on the darker, less savory side of human behavior. I write these things to explore issues I feel I need to address. Writing is not the same thing as RPing. It is somehow more remote and touches less intimately, triggers less emotional response. There have been times I (this is ME, now, not some weak, emotional thing) stopped writing in a cold sweat. A concrete, physical response to fear brought on by the simple act of black and white text writing.

RP is more intimate, especially MMO roleplaying, which adds visual stimulus to one's already quite fertile imagination and the knowledge that someone else is moving the events in addition to oneself. Someone as real as you are. Even 'safe, sanitized' RP such as exists in AO is very apt to become extremely personal, and evokes very real emotions, even in those of us who know the wall between reality and roleplay and keep it in place. While sometimes, RP moves in a line previously agreed upon between the involved character players, more often it does not. I will get back to that in a while, because I feel it's an important point.

Anyone who has cried at a movie can tell you that while they are completely cognizant of the fact that the people on the screen are just a projection of actors, going through motions to tell a story, that they could not help feeling what it was that moved them to tears. It is accepted as a cathartic experience and isn't really questioned all that much, as we seem to NEED catharsis. It doesn't seem to be unhealthy at all, but rather to the contrary, seems to be quite good for us.

Now I can see how such a game might be seen as a way to explore some very touchy issues and as a vehicle for catharsis for some... I can see how some people might THINK it would be a safe way to explore certain types of fantasies... in particular, rape. But I can assure you, with the UTMOST confidence, that this is a huge mistake and that it is not at all healthy or even particularly sane. Before you get too up in arms about my assessment, I will need to give you a little information about myself that will (or should) ease any doubts about blind prejudice or prudery and help you see what I'm saying a little better.

I, the person (not any of the personas I play or write), enjoy some lifestyle paths a lot of you will probably judge me negatively over. I am one of those people that is covered under that oh so generic banner of BDSM. To be more specific, I indulge in games of power exchange, enjoy both giving and recieving pain, like to restrain and be restrained, and a play few other less accepted little games. WITH CONSENTING PARTNERS. I had to stress that. Because when those three words are removed, what is safe and sane becomes unhealthy and criminal.

The majority of what is blanketed under BDSM is mental and emotional rather than physical. Most especially when one approaches the realm of fantasy fulfilment. And this is an aspect of the lifestyle that the practitioners approach with the utmost caution, because the reality is that fantasies, most especially those of a darker nature, are sometimes never meant to be made real. Which brings us back to the territory of the game being discussed. And why I am still thinking "what the hell were they thinking??"

Think about the people you play AO with. Not just your friends, but the ones you are exposed to in the course of play. The ones who hunt heklers in the same playfields you're in. The ones who come to RP events. Remember that this game, for most intents and purposes, is "safe and sanitized". Think about how they behave. Now remember it for later in the post. And remember the words "it's just a game" and the circumstances you've heard those words in AO, along with how you recall feeling just before and after you heard them. Oh yeah, also remember that the AO player community is most likely the best group of people in gaming. Most of you know where I'm going by this point.

Take the intimacy of a visually assisted form of roleplay, the anonymity of the internet, the dangerously unstable nature of dark sexual fantasies and then roll them into an MMORPG and remove the words mutual consent from your vocabulary. Now listen to the words "it's only a game."

Assuming (and I will assure you that there is no real way to ensure that all players are either of the age of consent, mature enough to handle even normal sexual situations in a roleplayed environment, and stable enough to differentiate beween RL and RP) the playbase of such a game is slightly more mature and stable than that of Anarchy Online, try to imagine what kind of play experience you might expect should you sign on to such a game. The brief description given in that article about "rape fantasies" is extremely misleading and does not quantify the extreme emotional response this activity will evoke in a person, even done in a pre-planned, safe and controlled environment between parties who know one another very well. Exchanging the actual live and physical act for a virtual one only slightly lessens the emotional impact. Turning the kind of people this particular genre attracts loose in such a virtual environment together isn't just sketchy, it's downright irresponsible.

Remember, EVERY MMO has its griefers, its trolls and its bad apples. THIS game will attract a mix of the curious, the bored, the decent and the downright dangerous. A lot of you probably never heard of the incident that happened on LambdaMOO and couldn't care less. The writers of that article project the attitude that they couldn't care much themselves and make light of it, citing that "it shook up the game" and "it was unexpected" and ignoring the actual gravity of the incident.

"Dibbell suggests, however, that in-world rapes rise above other crimes, even though each is no more than a reconfiguring of 1s and 0s."

Think about that.

Then tell me again how you think it's a good idea.

[Tarryk]

I've read that over in it's entirety twice, and I understand exactly where you're coming from. And, in respect to the entire thing, I present you with another notion.

Have you ever had the fantasy to kill someone? I mean really kill someone. To take their life away, not with a gun, but with a club. In real life.

I'm reiterating because I don't want you to think of it like the movies tell you to. I want you to literally think for a moment about the reprocussions it would have on your psyche, and the thoughts that might be going through your victim's head, as you were beating them with a wooden bat.

The crunch of the bat during each blow, shattering the limbs of your screaming victim, who desperately tries to fight back, to no avail. You are KILLING THIS PERSON. Their blood is on you and your weapon and you're not stopping. You keep hitting them and hitting them until their life finally drains away, and you see them cough up a pint of blood as they attempt to get away from your frantic swinging.

And they finally die, in a slump, some limbs bent sharply in the wrong direction because of the damage inflicted by your club. To add to it all, you take all the possessions you can from their body, then you laugh at the form beneath you like it was someone who deserved what you just did to them. And then you walk away feeling as though you had become a better person for what you just did to them.

Now I want you to forget all that, go roll up an Enforcer, focus on 1h blunt, and begin training for PvP.

Then come back and tell me that you're justified because you can filter the implications of such a hideous act out in order to enjoy what amounts to an unrealistic portrayal of that very scenario. I know it doesn't mean you have fantasies of killing people, nor does it mean that you enjoy the concept of taking the lives of others around you. For you the implications of playing such a game are null and void because it is an emulation that is in place for A) enjoyment and B) escape from the reality in which you would not ever conceive of doing such horrible things.

Tell me then that some other people, who's minds do not cork the same bottle of wine as yours does, have no right to see an unrealistic portrayal of such a horrible thing in a game.

EDIT: I should add the notation of Terry Goodkind. One of the greatest authors of fantasy genre I have ever read. They had acts of both violence and sexual assault explained in those first few books that had my mind reeling. It disgusted and horrified me, and made me hate. It made me despise the antagonist responsible for those fictional acts to such a degree that I had to turn the page. Without scenes like that, the ones that drive me forward through the novel by raw emotional need to see the finality of the book unfold, it would have been just another novel.

But that doesn't mean I enjoy sexual assault. Nor does it give anyone else the right to dare accuse me of having a sick mind for enjoying the book as a whole.

But if someone were to read the book only FOR those scenes, they are sick. But I'm not going to judge or accuse them unless they outright tell me, because for as sick as a person like that might be, it doesn't not instill the audacity to burn the book.

[Oddysee]

I'm rather puzzled with this whole event. I mean, I can see how it will attract undesirables who fantasise about this in daily life. And I can see how that might affect the affected. But on the other hand, without those urges... Would anyone play the game? Aren't they all really in it for the same buzz?
I kinda consieve it as a fetish forum. All the people present know what they are doing, and what the risks are. Yet they remain. I don't think anyone will downright go and rape someone after playing this game... Not if they werent going to anyway. The problem is, the poeple who might do it, might ALSO play this game. Which will be bad for the games credibility.
Do I need to mention Doom!?

Playing these games does not make you a sicko. You were a sicko to begin with, that is what attracted to you to the game, true. But the game didn't do it. Other, sane, people are playing too. They are not raping anyone.

I'm amongst the most violent gamers I know. I'm waiting with eager anticipation for the day someone invents a game with Rainbow Six's realism. And Soldier of Fortunes graphical violence... Yet I've never struck a person in my life, nor do I desire too. I'm always the first to walk away.
This from a person who mutilated every corps he came by when the game allowed it, and was always certain to try and see if it did on the first corpse he saw. I spent hours chasing people around in GTA III with a baseball bat, or a car just for the heck of it. I trained my creature in B&W to destroy and eat anything it came by. And directly chase children. I've caught myself grinning madly as I sent wave after wave of Marines to their screaming deaths in Star Craft... Yet I've never seriously considered hurting someone in Real Life.
I'm probably one of the most peacefull people you will ever meet. Yet fictionally, I am the most violant mass murderer you will come across... Do these games make me dangerous? Not on your life. Have they caused me to ever do anything to anyone? Can't think of a single time. Will I ever? Not likely.
So should all these games be shut down, because kids from school shootings played them? Should we ban metal because someone comitted suicide to it?
I mean heck, a kid was killed in scandinavia because he and his friends were playing Power Rangers with sticks... He was beaten to death... POWER RANGERS!!! If we had to ban everything that could make someone snap, we would ban the world and sue God, as Tarryk put it the other day. There are sick people out there. But banning everything that could make them consider actually doing it in RL is NOT the answer... If nothing else, I would have thought that gun culture, and the banning of toy guns, so children would not have urges to ever use a real one, would have proved that much. All it does is create mystery. And as humans, it is our nature to explore mysteries.

I see it as odd, rather sick, and I wouldn't play it. But I don't believe shutting it down will solve anything. The undesirables will go else where. It wont make them go away. All it did was close som'n sane people are using as well.
I mean, we can't shut down subways because someone throws themselves on the tracks in depression...






Tm

[Cowtipper]

Hello. It's time for me to write an insanely long post that most people will get bored of reading. It's not funny either, sorry no cow humor.

I agree with Oddy that there shouldn't be an issue over a person's consent in this game.

I also agree with Tarryk. The people who believe this is a good idea are the ones bringing original games to the industry. It's the same thing with political issues and books in the past. You end up with stories that are totally out there. While I'm not entirely fond of the theme in this particular game, I can see how its minor success can affect games far into the future.

You do not play Shadowbane and expect that you won't be killed by another player, and have them emote pissing on your corpse. If you do, you definately went to the wrong game since that's the whole premise behind it. The major reason it was created was a world of chaos and anarchy where players could create their own vigilanty-like law and take things into their own hands to keep people in check. Well, that was the sales pitch anyway.

No one will force anyone to play this game. In fact, you'll have to pay to play it. Considering this will be an adult-only video game, NO ONE WILL SELL IT. So you will have to seek it to find it. This leads me to believe that anyone making it a point to play this game is giving their consent to anything that can happen in it.

Now, as a gamer and someone who has been looking to break into the industry for a few years, I have to say it's about damn time. While it's not the theme I was hoping for, it is in fact a game that could work well in creating new content for on-line games that are specifically generated towards adults.

Oh, much of the games out there today are for adults, right? Well, not really. Much of it is watered down to PG-13/Rated R type stuff. Parents might disagree with me, but that's how I view it. Blood and violence are part of everyday life in some sectors of the world, and has been throughout history. It doesn't mean it's right, but that also doesn't mean that we should completely censor ourselves or our children from it. If you sanitize everything, you never build up your defenses, and nobody wants to live in a bubble.

Yah, some of the women can be a little revealing (and unrealistic in body shape, c'mon not every chick has a rack I can put a beer on and it'll sit there stable) and some of the content can be inappropriate for youngsters, but overall that's how much of the industry works. It's fantasy and these things go hand-in-hand with it.

I agree with many of your arguments, Bootay. I know something like this will go out of hand. I can already see politicians using this game as part of their platform to save the children. I still don't think it's a bad idea despite the negative aspects behind it. To me it appears as the natural evolution of the gaming scene. You first start seeing something to the extreme, then more starts popping up that's a bit tamer, maybe something with a similar idea but different way of going about it that's less offensive and gets more players. While I don't agree with the industry trend towards "More realistic, more blood, more gore, more boobs, more extreme, more more more is they want", I do understand that people are into that.

I'm much more of an arcade fan than anything else. I've spent a great deal of my time playing old 8-bit games while going to the arcade around here which had Gallactica and Pac Man rather than Tekken and Area 51. It's the games that distract me from life and give me something to occupy my mind which I enjoy. There are people who are into some weird shit, though. I'm not going to stop them from expressing themselves or enjoying that stuff, however, because I don't have to play their game if I don't want to.

Right now, the entire market for MMORPGs is about what's safe and what already works. There's an insane amount of money involved, so no one wants to take risks. There have been many games that have failed and were closed up. There have been even more that didn't make it past conception and pre-release development. These games had unique themes, but their subscriber base was low. This gives publishers the idea that the only safe game is a tried and true idea copied and pasted. This is one of the reasons why I love Asheron's Call and Anarchy Online. They stand out amongst the dwarves and elves games that are so popular and prominent in online fantasy and roleplaying games.

[Mumon]

Wow.

It's... Isometric. Badly done Isometric! That alone is horrifying!

But yes, I agree, Boo. While I have no qualms with online adult content.... "whoa!"

Isometric can be good, but they have a 1:1 ratio where if they want it good it needs to be closer to 1:2 ratio. Look at Diablo. That was Iso and it was all right (SUre it could have been better)

What I wonder, and I've not had time to look into this, but they mention rape, but what about consentual sex. Could one get married in that game, have a have sex, get the wife pregnent? (i know the get pregnet is a yes) but what happens with the children? Is it ment to just be a dark game? Or could one start a family of NPC? Could one control there children as if they are PCs?

[Mumon]

And my question is answered...

First of all there is no permanent death when your character is killed by an NPC. Accidents happen and nothing is so annoying than trying to get away with a low health value, running into a bunch of punks and get whacked without a chance. So if an NPC kills you, you loose some of your money in the bank, you are re-equipped with standard cloths and weapons and transported to a neighbor room. Your belongings are placed in a box and dropped where you were KOed and can be picked up by you, or anybody else.

The situation is different when a PC (player character) kills you. He can chose whether he wants to KO you, just like an NPC, or really kill you in order to eliminate your character from the world.


In this case your character is really dead and can not come back to London. However two aspects influence this event: First of all, a player will think twice before he kills another player because of our justice system (see below) which can track those actions. Second of all, if you have an hair, you pass on most of your belongings (including your houses) although you receive a punishment by loosing some money. You can then take over that heir character and go on.

How do you create an heir? The answer is: naturally! By having sex, a woman can become pregnant. After 9 month of game time (which is just a few days real time) the woman gives birth to the child, which in turn becomes a potential heir to her and the father. The first of the parents to die may take over the heir as his / her new character. However, each character can have a maximum of 4 possible heirs, so you eventually have to discard some, if you find out that you like another possible heir better. On the other hand, if the other parent dies first and chooses this heir, he is lost for you! You can select one of your heirs as preferred heir. When your character dies, the system picks this particular heir instead of choosing a random one.

[Oddysee]

It's not the only game to include open sex tho... I saw a game called singles the ohter day... Built on Sim's II, with the sameengine and plot... Only everyone was 100% anatomically "correcT" (my arse) and functional... The idea was, you could raise your "Sim's" to go to work... or stay home and fuck (pardon my french, but it's what it said) all day... In full view and motion... With zoom and all... The slogan was:
"What every sim player secretly wants".
And honestly, I do believe they're right... No single copy of the sims sold out so fast, as the one with the bed... The expansion that allowed them to have "Officially sanctioned, state approved sex" was the most popular one ever... Everyone is constantly looking for hints of sex in anything. In star Wars: Galaxies, a special type of body suit, when given the right colours would make you look as though you were naked... They quickly changed the pattern, but still... People always have looked for it.
Now it's here in a bit more "in your face" package and a lot can't cope. We seek it, yet only hints... Direct confrontation is something we're not quite ready for. But it's comming... Weather we like it or not...






Tm

[Cowtipper]

Yes, singles was the first Adult Only game to make news this year. The problem is, it was so boring and buggy that I didn't feel it was worth mentioning.

I mentioned above that Adult Only games don't get carried by retailers. The statement was based off Singles and a few other games I've seen in the past. They were normally purchased directly from the developer and either downloaded or shipped a copy of the game.

Mumon, after you asked that I decided to check the game out in a bit more detail rather than the glance I gave the site at home this morning.

Some of the features of the game don't seem that bad, and are pretty creative solutions to resolve in game problems or create unique gaming dynamics. The rape example is one of the things that can be done in the game, but that doesn't mean that everybody is running around making it their point to rape people. It's just like I mentioned about Shadowbane and pvp. You go in expecting that it can happen. Don't be surprised if it does, but not everyone runs around as crazy chaos loving anarchists killing anything that moves.

There are also features built into the game that allow BDSM play with locks and bondage items that can only be removed by the person who holds the key. Seems like it caters to a few other sexual deviant-like situations. It might be interesting for people in that stuff. The only thing I can think of is that playing a game like this might make some people bored with it in real life and sap some of the excitement out of that real life interaction.

It seems like a lot of the elements are meant to emulate the real parts of real life and the real consequences and alternative lifestyles that exist. That's not such a bad idea, in my opinion. The graphics are horrible though. Doesn't seem like the engine is that great either. I'm also not too keen on the web page, it seems like something I might see on Geocities rather than a professional game company.

Bootay, this is where I agree that even in online games the impact of an encounter can have detrimental psycological effects. I played The Sims Online from beta through about four months after launch, and I'll tell you what, that game changed a great deal in that period. At first everyone started off having fun, and it was a big party most of the time. Before I left, which was much of the reason behind my quitting the game, people were having difficulty distinguishing between real life and the lives of their sim counterparts. Real life marriages and relationships were breaking up, epic personal wars were brewed across the game. It's crazy that so many people let loose and did things that they normally would never do, then you turn around and find out that they were a little 70-year-old lady, or that lesbian woman in the lesbian brothel that tried to convert one of my sim lady friends was actually a big hairy dude named bubba that lived in some swamp in Louisiana.

Ahh, the wonders of anonymity.

[Boinky]

Sorry I can't read all the posts or focus on this too much. Seems like a sick world, but then again I guess that's no surprise.

Second of all, if you have an hair, you pass on most of your belongings (including your houses) although you receive a punishment by loosing some money. You can then take over that heir character and go on.

However, each character can have a maximum of 4 possible heirs, so you eventually have to discard some, if you find out that you like another possible heir better. On the other hand, if the other parent dies first and chooses this heir, he is lost for you! You can select one of your heirs as preferred heir. When your character dies, the system picks this particular heir instead of choosing a random one.

This part on the other hand I found quite funny. Got 4 kids and are pregnant? Start deciding which one to toss. Hmm Billy hasn't been taking out the trash, and he hasn't been accepted by the gang of thugs that rule the neighborhood, I think he's the best one to ditch.

[Firia]

(I was drawn to the topic by the subject reaction to a person whom isn't normally prone to this reaction. Sorry for dragging it up again. ^_^)

I am struck. Dumbstruck. I want to say so much, but I hardly know WHERE to start. It's not something that can be reguarded in a short few sentances either, at least, not by me. Though... I'll try.

(Edit: Half way through, I realised that I cannot write about this topic w/o being a little biast. Sorry.)

Booty brought up every aspect that had me reeling at first,
then Tarryk brought up the other side of the spectrum that had also crossed my mind.
(I ~try~ to weigh boths sides to one thing if at all possable. Were someone to bring this up in a person to person disgussion, I'm afraid I'd be a crazed incoheriant mess trying to explain why it twists my stomach. In a writen forum, I can at least think.)

Killing VS Sexual Exploitation

Modern america has, in a nutshell, skewed our perception of which is worse. In a movie, a human will die a brutal murder; The audiance cringes at best. In a movie, a woman (very rarely is it a man) screams and wails in protest as she's raped, the audiance goes up in arms.

In real life, a human is murdered, the felon goes away for a very long time, or worse. In real life, a human is raped, it's 10 to 20 years behind bars.

Death is the common field in video games. I belive it's been a success because there's concepts of conquest, a struggle to be waged, and that feeling of succeeding the odds in the end. There are hills to climb and a feeling of achievment to be had. It can be a topic that's dumbed down in graphic nature to be less grotesque -- not to say that makes it any better.

Sexual Exploitation is also about conquest and power. In terms of Murder, it's not far off, with the differing exception being the final result; in one case, life is sustained while in the other, life is extinguished. A person can be left with scars -- Yaknow, I've gotta stop writing about this, otherwise...

~~~~~

From a business woman professional standpoint;

In the videogame world, I can't even concive how this concept in a game could succeed. I think that there's a number of no brainer things to go along with that. So much so that I need not go on any further at all. ^_^

[Tristalyn]

Hey! We can beta test it for $3!

I know beta's don't care much about their graphics, but if they're pushing an adult game with rape fantasies the least they can do is make it SOMEWHAT appealing graphical wise. It's just wrong in all meanings of the word.

[Dragonfruit]

haha... a game like this had ought to come out sometime =p I like the concept, but just like GTA, its only a choice to go to the "dark side". the new concepts they bring into this game make the social atmosphere more interactive, more real to you, and if you like a alternative server to real life, the games for you