Response to New York Post

[Mumon]

On December 29th, 2003 the New York Post printed an article encouraging readers to sell there stock in Take-Two Interactive Inc. The author of this article, a Christopher Byron, spends one paragraph to mention that the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) is investigating Take-Two’s accounting methods. The article then goes onto describe the company’s most ghastly game, which also happened to account for most of the company’s profits that year, spending the next nineteen paragraphs on this single topic. The next three paragraphs are then spent insulting the founder of the company’s father. Then the article finishes up with two paragraphs about SEC and what they are doing in relation to this company.

Let us not be fooled by how the article is arranged, making you think it is about the SEC investigation, or how bad the company as a whole is. Instead let us use basic math to realize that this article’s main focus is Take-Two’s top selling game – “Grand Theft Auto: Vice City” – a game that has sold over five million copies during a year’s period of time. To put this into perspective, we compare the number of copies sold to numbers available from the US Census Bureau, and find that for every 56 people in the United States at least one of them owns a copy of this game. That number isn’t even taking into account the fact that it’s likely to be only one copy of the game per household. Using those numbers instead you come much closer to 1 in 21 people who live in a household that own this game. To further put this in prospective, this means that in any random classroom, at least one person in that room owns and plays this game.

The New York Post spends some time explaining what the premise of the game is, and then goes on to say and I quote, “This is 10,000 times worse than the worst thing anybody thinks Michael Jackson ever did to a little boy”, but yet offers no actual backing behind the numbers that they present. Without any kind of backing this only becomes the opinion of one person, and not fact. It is not a fact that playing this game is 10,000 times worse than molesting a child, but instead an opinion. While opinions are great things, the fact that this opinion is coming from a well-respected newspaper does not make it correct.

The article then goes on to remind us all of the two boys who decided to go and shoot guns into traffic, resulting in someone’s death. The author of this article reminds us that these two boys, who happened to both be below the games recommended age range had been playing “Grand Theft Auto” and had wanted to do like they did in the game. I will not sit here and say that the game did not play a role in these children’s actions, but I will also not sit here and say that it was the primary role. The author would like us to believe that it is the people that sell the games responsibility to enforce the age requirements on a game. Never mind the fact it was never intended to be the stores responsibility, but instead the parents’ responsibility to decide what games their children can play. Also never mind the fact that these two boys had access to guns to even shoot into traffic.

The author would also have you forget that games aren’t the only source of violence in a child’s life. Movies are another source of violence in today’s society, as is attending school and seeing the school bully pick on someone that’s smaller than them self. Sometimes just going into your own house can be a source of violence, with parental abuse. Some forms of violence you can’t easily avoid, while other forms can be prevented. Parents that take the time to explain to their children that the game is just a game, can easily control “Grand Theft Auto”, and need not worry that their child will think it all right to go and shoot guns into traffic.

Mr. Byron then goes on to ask if it would be all right for the Beltway Sniper to play this game because he’s in his forties, but not all right for the young teenager that had been with him to play it also. This is akin to asking if it would be all right for Hitler to play this game, because he was well past his teens when he committed the atrocities that has earned him a place in the history books. As a mater of fact all three of these people are prime examples of how your life can be messed up without the influence of video games. If we pull two random things that we don’t like together we can make meaningless analogies all day.

As I said before, I will not sit here and say that “Grand Theft Auto” does not encourage violent behavior, but I will also not sit here and let someone lay the blame of peoples violent actions solely on the shoulders of it either, while there are so many other factors involved when someone decides to pick up a gun and shoot it at someone. To say that “Grand Theft Auto” and games like it should be pulled from the market and banned is not something that I can agree with. Instead we should be encouraging parents to become more aware of what games their kids own, and are aloud to play.

[Mumon]

Also if you feel like Emailing the above words to anyone, feel free, just be sure to include that they are the words of Matthew M Poxson when you do.

[Darth Bootay]

D00D.

There are a LOT of people who honestly refuse to take the blame for their own poor parenting who are just itching for excuses such as the one you have mentioned to point The Finger. If it's not a game, it's television. If it's not television, then it's that damned satanic rock music. It's been going on and getting worse ever since I was a kid...and as you know, I'm so old I fart dust.

Which is not to say that we shouldn't speak out about this kind of misuse of the media and blameshifting when we see it. We should. Though we must realize tha our rational opinion on the matter will make us less than popular with the unruly masses who refuse to take a real part in the raising of their own degenerate crotchfruit. They are, unfortunately, the majority.

But anyway, preach on, brother Mumon.

[Gridfan]

I don't understand all the panic around Vice City. If it was Postal 2 I'd understand it a bit as that game was made to shock people a bit.
Vice City on the other hand was created for harmless fun AND to depict the 80's. If they wanna ban Vice City they might as well ban the 80's lol.

And another thing. anyone that is "motivated" by a game, movie, book, news item on CNN etc to go out and do bad things isn't in my definition normal nor stable in the first place and someone screwed up socialy somewhere not to help those people before shit hit the fan.

As to the Michael Jackson comment, heh. isn't MJ suspected of sexual activity with minors?
As far as I know, there isn't any such thing in Vice City so that really have me scratching my head.

If anything, Vice City is a retro game, depicting (and sometimes overdoing and making fun of the 80's).
And that Haiti/Tahitian thing currently going the news media rounds vs Vice City. didn't that minority group stand behind a lot of crime and drugs stuff during the 80's? If I where them I'd try and forget and be quiet about that past instead of suing Vice City...

Naturally officials are just as whacked in the head here in Norway. (had our own tirade of Vice City upheavals here lol)
They argued for bannig or censoring Vice City. *Sigh*
I don't get it. if adult games are so bad for kids, why not ensure that only ADULTS get them? Put a damn 18+ sticker on it and require
clerks to check ids'.
And if kids use fake id's. well thats id fraud and def not the game company or game shop clerks issue heh...

Is it me or is the world getting more and more nuts?
I hope Rockstar games etc don't take this too hard, we need game makers to feel safe at making the games they want to make,
cause there is only so many Britney Spear dance games you can endure before snapping and going out and shooting people due to loss of sanity. lol

Some may find my next comment a bit harsh or aggrivating, but it is my belief that:
not a single thing made or depicted in any form is responsible for our actions.
The only thing/person responsible for our actions are ourselfs,
the kids mentioed earlier are only responsibile for what they did themselfs,
trying to blame a game is just a way to try and get off easier.
Yes guns are made to primarily kill (unless you count target games/pracice) but ultimately someone has to pull the trigger to kill,
and trying to blame a game for pulling the trigger is lunacy if ya ask me.
The game didn't pull a trigger, a person did. and that person is responsible for it...

Sigh! Morality is such a biig issue these days, but may seem to have forgotten what morality truly is.
Morality is what a person deems good/bad, appropriate/or not.
Yes it can be influenced, but it's still a person's own choice what he does.
So uless a game maker poited a gun to some kids head and threatened them to pul the trigger, blaming a game doesnt' make sense to me.
I'm more worried about presidents waging wars over issues that are just as silly as blaming a game for being violent.

Does anyone know where the exit on this planet is?
Because I'm starting to itch to get off this crazy ride thats called Earth...

[Firia]

I don't get it. if adult games are so bad for kids, why not ensure that only ADULTS get them? Put a damn 18+ sticker on it and require clerks to check ids'.

In the states, there is a big sticker on all games. There's the rating system that's on par with movie ratings. I belive a game like Vice City rates as M for mature. That's also the same as Rated R, Restricted to minors. It's the same thing.

So yes, it is the fault of parents and sales clerks if minors get their hands on this game. ^_^

[Jugsmalone]

Well i dont normally read the news or listen to it in my opion its all bull we only hear it in anothers perspective and this article willonly sell more games/People will just have tohave it now . Thier will always be good people and bad thier will always be right or worng thier will always be clan and omni . I think it is only you that can change your own destainy. It is your choice to eat the apple . JUST DONT EAT MINE

[antonius_ao]

I'm more worried about presidents waging wars over issues that are just as silly as blaming a game for being violent.

But don't wars now a days actually seem like video games? Talk about glorified violence. The 24 hour news channels would show the mission objective, be on the front lines with the troops to show the action, then broadcast the debriefing. And if you have TiVo or the likes, you even have a pause button!

Video Game companies will be blamed until they start lining the pockets of Politicians like all good industries do. Movies used to be blamed, but I think it's pretty safe to say Hollywood and US Government are close friends now. And the Music Industry used to be reviled, but they have come a long way towards friendship. Even Metallica has become fine upstanding citizens.

So, we just need a VideoGamesIndustryofAmerica (the VGIA) and then soon, Video Games will not be as bad as we were once told. The violence is acceptable, you foolish people, they will tell us. Don't worry, they'll find something else to blame... I think the Internet hasn't been bothered too much lately.

Am I saying my (the US) government is corrupt? Yes. Do I love my country? Yes, so don't get me wrong. It could be better, but clearly they aren't motivated by what is best for the People, unless those people are the politicians themselves. But, is there ANY country that is any better? Will there ever be? Power corrupts, etc., etc.

[Nexeus]

First and foremost, the New York Post is the worse paper ever written in New York City. I am ashamed of its journalism (or lack there of), and its despicable amount of CRAP that it prints. Also mind you this paper is written for 3rd graders to read. Add that with the fact that it is a republican lead papers, and you'll soon realize why this article was just coming and more of a trying to get sponsorship from Mayor Bloomberg (yes he is involved with this, who also happens to be republican). After you're done reading this, you'll begin to realize that I'm NOT bashing Republicans or any ethnic group (well maybe a little, but still), just pointing out the sheer stupidity that all of this has caused.

Let’s start from the beginning. Take-two (as you know) is the developer of Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. Vice City, as it is called, was released on October 27th, 2002 (so over a year ago). The game has sold well over 11 million copies and like its previous game, became the sole responsibility for violence in America, and the reasons why teens go out with guns shooting people and things. Yet bad parenting, the fact that youth can get guns or don't get checked for them, but cannot buy mature games does not come into play here. We also fail to recognize that parents leave these weapons out in places or ever train their children to use guns, and hunt, very much so like the kid who pulled the fire alarm and then snipped students running out of the school. Here's a better example of how adults have influences of what children do, look at the recent Virginia Sniper case (can't remember names now), where a 14 year old was trained and coerced (in my belief - to a point he was) to shoot down these people.

BUT, lets take on the premise that Vice City is actually the cause of violence, not television that parents watch with their kids that have violent movies or the fact that bad parenting is involved, or the fact that parents do not explain to their children what is going on, or if not, try to seek professional help for them. Now let’s take a look at what is happening in New York City concerning this game (sorry to be a bit biased but please follow me through this journey of a ride). A recent spattering between the Haitian community in New York and take-two came into play where the Haitians felt that Vice City was derogatory, and received support from Mayor Bloomberg to help correct these transgressions in the game here for more information. Wait... lets back up... you mean well after 11 million copies of the game, one year, and two months later, Haitians are getting upset? Because of discrimination? WOW!!!! I wonder whom they are going to sue next... maybe some 1980's movie that depicts them the wrong way. I'm sorry people, but you’re very slow... too slow to try and really take any action here, but go ahead.

What caught me by surprise though is that Bloomberg got into the mess of this, thinking he actually has something against this game and the violence that this game depicts. First it was Mortal Kombat, then Doom, now this. And somewhere in between all of this, we have had Columbine, another school in Seattle, and several other shootings in the nation that has garnered national attention... YEARS AFTER KIDS IN NEW YORK AND MOST OTHER URBAN AREAS WERE BRINGING GUNS TO SCHOOL AND SHOOTING EACH OTHER UP IN THE 80'S!!!! I mean I don't ever remember anyone blaming the A-Team or Knight Rider for excessive violence in the schools. But it was there. Once again this is a fact that the Post is going to neglect and look over.

But why not, why at this point will a pointless paper, make such a ridicules editorial piece? It is because the paper wants recognition from someone who may not be mayor anytime soon. I know this makes little to no sense, but it's very much so the truth. The New York Post is the worst paper made, published and written ever, so this is why I don't read it.

As for the Haitian Community, I'm sorry but you really need to take another look at what you are doing. What happened here was that the Republican need support, and minorities (especially in New York) don't care about them, or voting in general. So this is why this issue was brought up, someone from the Republican party came to the community and decided to use them as fuel to make Bloomberg seem like he's standing up for their rights. Smart move guys actually not that I like it or coming down on Republican or Haitians, but a very smart move. Problem is this... Haitians you are too late, the communities that you live in (like East Flatbush where I used to live) are going to be turned over and gentrified and not made affordable by the same people that are coming in to try to resolve your differences with a GAME. On top of that, the mayor isn't really helping you find better or more affordable housing in the areas that you live in, he seems quite happy that you are living in your apartment buildings and areas of density because all is well now, but there are plenty of vacant lots and things that can be done to better your selves... but your rather Sue a game, help a mayor and have the Post write an article about an issue that really has one solution. And the solution involves the followings, grabbing a CD that has 10 tracks, 5 tracks of Prodigy's "Smack your Bitch up" and another 5 tracts of Prodigy's "Smack your Bitch Up" (DJ Hype Remix), next you bring the parents of every single person who is involved in this lawsuit who has children. And while you play these songs you SMACK THE SENSE INTO THEM! Now after you're done bitch slapping these people you give them a sign that says the following "Be better parents."

[Gridfan]

*applaudes*

[Firia]

huzzah. ^_^
I do sorta wonder what source of entertaining media is next, that forces teens to kill each other, once they're through with video games. They can't keep chewing the same bone forever, eh? I heard the internet earlier. I gotta agree. ^_^ It was assulted back in its birth for the sheer accessable nature of pornography, but has been pretty much left alone for a while.

But it also generates billions of dollars for the "right" people too... so I dunno. ^_^

[Bliqz]

/sarcasm

Ahhhh...the 80's...

Kicking your whore in the crotch after dumping her from your car onto the street...Bludgeoning her with the golf club in your right hand while munchng on the burger in the left until the grey matter hits the pavement...

Oh wait...thats Vice city. In the 80's I was in middlecshool and highschool...

/sarcasm off

Clearly Vice City is going to draw criticism. Not exactly good clean fun...and imho way over "postal" in the pointless violence department

[Gridfan]

Yeah! But the interesting thing is!
You dont HAVE to do that!
But yet you did...
Now myself I don't get a kick out of beating the hookers.
(or even bothering with the hookers at all)
Nor blasting people down.
I found driving around, crusing to the miami series theme and other old school music and rock much cool.
And nautraly the story itself intervowen with misc missions was even more facinating.

I guess the reason some people like to beat a hooker to death in a game etc
is mainly to let that little evil inside them have some fun. (we all have it)
But imo it's much better people do it in a game than real life,
once ya start doing it in real life. You got no self control.

[Bliqz]

After reading the review, and speaking to a friend who has to buy .:every:. new game, I didnt purchase it...so no, I didnt do any of that stuff.

Im older than your average gamer, and I know better how to control myself. can I say with certianly that when I was 12 or 15 that I would not have tried all the scenarios? No...But we are what we experience.

Do I suggest we practice censorship? Do I suggest we crap on the constitution?

Heck no.

But clearly there needs to be a rating system in place and a way to monitor and administer it.

Heck, my twist on RolePLay was to be a cannibal...not exactly a nice profession, but I handled it with humor and levity. Apply some common sense to the distribution, and let people play their games.

[Oddysee]

Hehe, I considered sending this guy a mail. But I doubt he'd even understand that he was the hysterical one... People who act so extremely rarely do...
Violent games don't make people manic killers... Over protection does!
If a kid has NEVER had a toy gun and played war games... They'll get a real one one day (ESPECIALLY in a country that promotes peoples rights to have guns...) and not know what to do with it, but they'll have a couriosity unequalled by most, as they've seen it on Tv and in all the movies...
Whereas the rest of us got that out of our system, when we played those games...

Heck, I'll gladly admit I'm the first to grab me a tank and cruise through town crushin all in my path in the old GTA:3... And I'd prolly go on "how long can I last" killing spree's in Vice City too... But have I ever as much as started a fight in real life?
Not on your life! Heck, I'm the first to leave...
Yet I have a violent mind unequalled by most... But it stays just there... In my mind.
There is a difference between fiction and reality, our repporter friend, doesn't seem to be able to comprehend that.

Take Tacz for instance. He plays Air Soft, and shoots people in a strategic "war simulation" sports game... Does that make him the next DC sniper?
I seriously doubt it!
As that is all it is to him. A game, not a mad killer desire.

I'd like to point out that most of the serial killers we all hear about were over protective kids, whose parents never let them watch an action movie.
The rest of the world seems to cope fine with this... So maybe you he should look towards his own barriers before acusing all around him of corrupting the youth and world with evil and violence.

Ignorance is FAR more dangerous!




Tm

[antonius_ao]

Oddysee, I wish it was that simple. Some things some people don't "get out of their system". Some people become obsessed. It's not the fault of Hollywood or Video Game companies, some people just aren't mentally stable. They see an idea, they take it for their own. Take the Columbine Killers:

They played many video games where they killed people. Did this get the want to kill people out of their minds? Not really. Did it influence them to shoot up their school? Influence, I'm sure it had SOME influence, but had they never played a video game, would they still have done it? More than likely.

A person that never plays a violent video game, sees a violent movie, watches the news, (I.e. lives isolated) will not have a desire to shoot people if he sees a gun the first time. He won't know what it is. In fact, I'll lay you odds that if he picks up the gun, he actually hurts himself with it in some way. But, a gun will not inspire violence by itself.

If you really want to blame someone... blame the parents. They should teach their children wrong and right. They should monitor them when they are young and explain things that might be upsetting. Unfortunately, these days, most parents think the TV or computer is a surrogate parent. Place the child in front of either, and then go about your life. Then complain to no end that computers and tv are evil and they corrupted your child and someone should not allow anything their poor precious child won't like be on either. Yes, punish all of society because you are not a fit parent. That is the new motto for our society.

[Riviques]

a game is a game. ive always had this strong opion on a topic like that and i fully agree with antonius_ao. videogames arnt the ones to blame. if you cant handle it, dont buy it! another issue is of parents pointing the finger at videogame companys that deplic violence and gore, which their kids have played. is it the company's fault? no, its the parents for buying a game with a "M" marking for "Mature". games are like movies, they all are marked for what audience they are most suitable for. i wouldnt go take my nephew to see some movie with guns-a-blazing and sex, nor would i buy him Postal 2. its called responsablitly, and these people have to learn it (not saying im a role model. but atleast i care for the children i know in not letting them watch rancy movies or games).

when we think of it, videogames are just the closest scapegoat in a search of who to blame for violence.

so parents and adults who try to point the finger, plz grow up. if you want to keep your kids safe and away from violence, then check the damn label on the box eh?

[Mumon]

I have remained quiet for a while on this topic after I posted it because I was curious as to hear other people's view points.

I wish now to give you a real life example... I know a kid whom moved in with his aunt and uncle fairly early on in life, because his home life was very unstable. I don't remember his exact age when he moved in with them, but I think it was about six years old.

This kid was treated the same by his aunt and uncle as they treated there own kids. The aunt and uncle tried their very best to not show favaritism in anyway.

Yet, still this kid would get into alot of trouble, stealing almost everyone including his best friend, geting into fights with people for not saying his (hard to say) name perfectly. There are many other things that he would do but I'm not going to get into them now. But even though he was only influanced by his biological parents for six years, and even then not so much by his dad, he still has turned out almost exactly like his dad.

All right some people might say that it's those first six years that effected his life the most, and there wasn't much that could be done for him by untrained people such as his aunt and uncle (dispite there best intentions).

But we realy should take a look at his dad, and see how he was raised. His dad was raised in the same house hold as his aunt (Brother and sister those two had been). This man when a child was always getting into trouble even before his father's death (Some people will say that when a parent dies a child will act out, but he had been acting out even before his father's death)

In both these cases, the father and the son, they turned out poorly yet I would not blame those that acted as parents during the times they had gotten in trouble as kids. For both of these people the only people I blame is them selves.

Everyone wishes to blame someone other than the actual person that made the actions, but sometimes that's the only person you should be blaming.

[Cirga]

Anyone who attempts to blame PC games for violence really needs to decide what reality is in this world today. Considering the amount of violence in practically every movie in the theatre and every television show.... media has taken a new high level in everything.

Just like that one guy in Taiwan who played EverQuest for 72 hours straight and left his chair once to go to the bathroom and then just dropped dead. And they blame the "game".

All I can say is.. those parents who raise their children in front of a TV to keep them quiet really should think about it again before doing so.

*sigh*

[Riviques]

see? parents need to be PARENTS and be responsable.

[Xtrophic]

Sadly enough parents aren't educated on the subject. I have a good example on this.
I was out to pick my boss up, and with me I had his son. Anyway, since we had a little spare time before picking him up we went into a game store and had a look around. He focused his eyes on a game we all know - GTA Anyway, he said it was ok for him to buy this game and that his parents had given him the OK to buy it. I suspected something was very wrong seeing how any parent would allow their 13 year old son to buy a game rated 18+. And my suspicion turned true, once I told him the game was rated 18+ and contains violence he was denied the purchase the game by his father.
The one thing I really want to bring up is that he has the previous GTA game home on his shelf and that one too has an 18+ stamp on it. The difference, they didn't (or still don't) know the characteristics of the game and went with their son told them, i.e. it's not really that violent and it's suitable for my age.

So I call it lack of education from the parent that is the cause for many people getting their hands on games there are not meant for their age. They simply don't know better than to go with what their kids tell them. And in this case he assured there wasn't that much violence.

He got a little pissed at me for calling his father up. But I don't care because I was doing the right thing, and that is IMO not giving him that kind of game.

It all boils down to the same thing, parents that aren't educated of what games are, and parents that don't do anything about it. Should I have a son or daughter myself I would never supply them with the game. Should they acquire it without my knowledge (which is very likely) I would as soon as I saw it most likely remove it and tell why I think what they are doing is wrong. Most of the time there is a good reason why a game is rated 18+, or 15+ or whatever.

So these days my boss asks me questions all the time about games since I am somewhat "into" the thing and I give him the background of the games such as game play style and all that. My boss is very strict with what he exposes his children to, and generally shooters end up on the block list by himself, after I give him the background of the game.

So a good advice for parents would be to make use of gamers of higher age to get a general idea of what a game is about and if it's violent and such things. Ask them what they think of the game and if they would recommend it to a child of a specific age. Or better yet start playing the games yourself for the best possible way to tell if your children are up to playing the game. After all, you should know your children best. If you don’t know where to get the games you can always start subscribing to a game magazine and get demos on CD/DVD, and best of all; reviews of games that should give and extensive insight of the game.

Now, don't mix what I have said above with anything like I blame the games for turning the regular choirboy into a bloody killer, because I do not think computer games are more responsible than the general movie with violence in it. The violence is something that’s been there all along, it has just changed slightly. In the past we used fists to knock our opponent out, today we use weapons instead. Such as sniper rifles, automatic rifles and similar types.
So society always changes, we always evolve to use technology available.

The games may have something to do about people turning out the way they do, I won’t deny that. But it’s definitely not the game developer’s fault their product is used in the wrong way. And they should never ever be liable for any damage caused, nor be open for people to sue them due to this. This would be comparable to people suing weapons manufacturers as soon as someone is killed with their weapon. And as far as I know, that’s not occurring very often.

So once again, it’s all about education. Educate your children, why some games are bad for them to play, and that they are not real at all. In real life bullets kill, in a virtual world they do not.

Alright … enough rambling from me for this round, I provided some mind candy for you to reflect upon and got my points of the matter out to the public.