What price Freedom?

[Fishi3]

Oh Canada...
Unfortunately Canadian politics has taken a step towards the dark side. The Liberal Government was caught in a scandal and this allowed the Conservatives to take power. The terms are meaningless since all Canadian political parties tend to be in the center compared to American political parties. The Conservatives are definately to the right though being a pro-big business party. But I digress.

The conservatives were destroyed some years ago when they had their own scandal. Brian Mulroney caused them to be so unpopular they didn't have enough seats to be considered as an official political party. Much to our dismay they merged with the Alliance party a Western interest party that was a scary monster to most sane Canadians because of it's dominance by Fundimental Christian orginizations.

Thats right the Fundies have control of the Canadian Government . Now Canada has always prided itself on being a Democracy. (Canada like every so called Democratic nation on the planet including the USA is actually a Republic. In a Democracy citizens represent themselves and vote directly on the issues. Republic you elect someone to represent your interests supposedly except lobby groups and political fundraisers now determine what the politician does no matter who you vote in.)

Getting back to my point. The Harper Conservatives have slashed funding. They have slashed funding to every part of the government that deals with womens rights since women should be barefoot and pregnant what need have they for rights...They have removed the word equality from several womens issues organizations. They have cut off legal aid for anyone taking the government to court on a civil rights issue since only the rich deserve their day in court where they can buy off the process of course...

This isn't what they promised to do when they were elected and they of course didn't advertise that they were doing this loudly.

I believe in the principal that a society is only free if everyone regardless of race, gender or wealth is treated equally. The Harper conservatives have made Canada less Free.

I am not amused.

[Mivat]

I will break one of my tenents here in life by commenting on this thread, as I normally NEVER enter a political or religious debate on the internet. I will do this by asking....

Who voted them into power? Those are the ones to blame, not anyone else.

[Fishi3]

I will break one of my tenents here in life by commenting on this thread, as I normally NEVER enter a political or religious debate on the internet. I will do this by asking....

Who voted them into power? Those are the ones to blame, not anyone else.

You missed the point.

[Mivat]

Did I? You were, as far as I can see, railing about the fact that the Fundites has taken over. And my answer to that is that you can't blame the fundites themselves for taking over when SOMEONE had to vote them into office.

But since you feel that I missed the point: Enlighten me.

[Blaik]

Mivat's point is valid...the voters are to blame for giving them the power (not personally saying whether or not they should have the power), but they didn't "take over" by force, so no one can be blamed but due process, which would be the free elections.

As for democracy, the US and other "democracies" are actually representative democracies, where representatives are voted in, but technically don't have to vote or govern the way the people that voted them in want. That is a republic...where a group of people basically select someone to represent them and their interests solely. So like the fishermen would have a representative, the tailors their own, and so on and so forth. Representative Democracry is supposed to be a blend of direct democracy(which for large countries is just too unwieldy) and a republic.

Anyway, not picking fights, just stating information. This is the last you'll hear from me on this....

[ivanelme]

Yeah, living in the states the fact that you are mad your politicians lied to you is kind of amusing. It happens here on a regular basis, you must wade through the bullshit to get to some truth.
And here is the thing about a democracy, the voters are always accountable. It doesn't matter if they did what they said they were or not. Campaigns mean nothing when you can dig up research proving that they have a streak for doing exactly the opposite. As you say the party was a monster, and yet you (not you personally I am talking generally) voted them in. You have no one to blame but yourselves.
The best part is, though, you can just vote them out next year.

[Regidoc]

This is why politics are never to be discussed in any fashion on any public forum. It always leads to some kind of fight among people with everyone thinking they are right.

[Chaimera]

what Regi said

[Firia]

Political and regligious disgussions can be fun when you're talking with mature people that don't take it personally.

[Mivat]

Or that will tell you WHY they think you are wrong/having missed the point.

[Dynamiks]

Funny thing about government elections.... No matter who you vote for, It is always a bloody politician that wins.....

[Fishi3]

I had written out a reply. But it dawned on me that anything I said would just be taken wrong.

So I edited out the good with the bad.

I will state that I personally do work at improving the system. I work on my chosen candidates campaign doing phone calls. This takes alot of dedication as I dispise telephones with a passion.

As for tired old cliches about it's all the voters fault... Bullshit!

Honor, Honesty and dedication exist. They just don't get major funding from corporations. They don't make the news because the news is paid for by advertising by those same corperations.

And this particular thread is political activism. You know that thing that all members of a democracy are supposed to participate in.

What you latched onto was the back history to the point. Since Americans are usually very unaware of what happens outside their borders I threw in a bit of recent Canadian political history. Not being a professional writer I may of caused confusion by doing so. If I confused you then I'm sorry. It wasn't my intent.

The point remains there in the original text.

[Sporkleet]

RULE #1 for any political debate...

fishi from what Ive gathered in canadian political system it only takes ~30% of the east coast to change the political structure in canada, weird setup about the population concentration... america could learn a thing or two... sry Cali you dont matter anymore, so go back to berkly with your granola munching - sandal wearing - dope smoking - farmers corn field crashing for a drum communal thing hippie selves

In order to be a participant of a political debate in regards to parties in power, the debator or debatee ( ) must have first participated in the political process of which said forementioned political subject matter was enacted. If such participation in specific instance the process is unfulfilled then debator or debatee ( lol ) forefits any future litigation force warranted by said participation in the political subject matter. ( god loves all the little children, all the little children of the world. wait strike 'of the world' mark 'of the american legalities culture'... legalism ftw!)

basically. if you didnt vote in the elections keep your mouth shut about the politicians you didnt help get in or get out of office... FYI on a BTW note did you know that write-in ballots are sometimes allowed to be thrown out and NOT counted in specific situations? (votes made by copper dont count )

[Negs]

$4.95


ps. i'm with Mivvie on this one

[Mivat]

Honor, Dedication and idealists are not something you will regularly find among the older politicians, as they have long lost any sense of those three things due to deals both above and below the table (honor), due to compromise (dedication) and painful and often shameful defeats (idealism). Among the younger politicians and the different youth-organisations, yes, but most older politicians know that an honorable, dedicated and idealistic politician is about as non-existant as an honest one. An honest politician doesn't exist, as someone that was honest wouldn't get voted into office because they actually DARED to say exactly what they ment, when they ment it or got asked about it. It would be a clumsy way of doing politics, and it would be a far too definite way. There would be no room for manouvering, there would be no room for backtracking in the face of uncomfortable questions, and there would be no room for comprimise. Have you ever seen such a politician? I think not.

The fact still remains that in a democracy, it is THE PEOPLE that vote representatives, be them congressmen/women, Prime Ministers or Presidents into office. Ultimately, THE PEOPLE are responsible for what happens in the aftermath of an election. The right to vote does not abolish each voter's responsibility for what a political party will implement in terms of policy, unless the party does something so insanely contrary to what they promise to do. You vote an ultra-right wing christian fundamentalist party who wants to take your country back to the dark ages, you as a voter are responsible for it when/if they actually manage that. (Given, the odds of this ARE pretty slim, as most people recognize insanity when they see it threatening their very way of life.) By this I do not mean that you are PERSONALLY responsible, but the voters share a common responsibility for the actions of the people they help get into power, regardless.

As Copper said: Unless you vote, you do not have any right to bitch and moan about the situation that happens. Period. It is your right, but also your DUTY as a citizen of a democracy to actually use the misfiring bunch of synapses that some would call a brain to figure out where you stand and then vote. People seem to forget that with the rights of being a citizen and a voter in a "free" democratic country, there are also duties. But some people cannot seem to not be out only to put icing on their own cake, and usually that goes by the rule of "the more I get the better".

In my opinion, politics should be about the will of the people, not the amount of money someone puts into a political party, or a politician's, pocket. I have never, WILL never and are not a fan of the 1 dollar, 1 vote-system that many countries seem to favour. In quite a few countries, Norway as well, it seems that most of the politicians has forgotten that they exist FOR the people, and that they themselves come from them. Instead of We, the people, it's seemingly turned into We, AND the people.

I probably have said way too much with this post, but there are, in my mind, some dire misconceptions stated in this thread that I feel that I cannot let go unchallenged or uncommented. But lets' get back to the original text that Fishi posted: I STILL cannot see where I went wrong in the characterization I made in my first post, and I STILL would like enlightenment from those who so obviously know better than I do.

[Fishi3]

It's my practice to write something once and only once. If you can't reread the original post and see it for yourself then no amount of explaination can or will ever explain it to you. I'm dropping this thread simply because I'm not interested in dealing with what I precieve as deliberate obtuseness, Go troll elsewhere.

[Tarryk]

Blah blah blah, everybody just vote me president and I'll start droppin' my thread-lockin' skillz like a mad presidential ninja. Woooooaaaa!