GridStream Productions

How trapped you must feel, how hopeless and lonely and helpless. What is the nature of your reality, that you must be who you are in this virtual world? What happened to you? What made you so cold, so willing to forget that those black and white voices have color and feeling somewhere else, somewhere on the other end of some keyboard and glass screen? So easy.

So easy for you to forget or ignore, that even in a virtual world, there are living, breathing and feeling people swimming. The line is so fragile, but it is there connecting us all with the flesh that generates the thoughts and ideas, an umbilical that leads back to a human being. You. Me. Millions of others. Each of us a person. But because you cannot hear and see us... we are not real to you. And because we are not real in your perception, you are free.

Free to be outrageous. To be something flesh refuses you. To be something you'd hate or fear if you met it in your cubicle farm prisons or high security institutions of learning. In cyberspace, they say no one can hear you scream. But they're wrong. Your screams are heard. It's not just a game. But you say it so often that you believe it. So you can pretend that everyone else isn't real. So you can justify what you do.

But a crime is a crime, even in a virtual world. Cruelty is cruelty. A lie is still a lie. Selfishness is no less disgusting. Anonymity does not make you any less guilty. It is only a mask you can hide behind. The virtual is merely a digital extension of reality, not a refuge from it. But you decieve yourself into thinking it doesn't matter what you do. You buy the lie that says that if it's online that it can't really hurt anyone real.

But think. Think about it, really. If it's not real, and you can't hurt anyone real, then why have YOU felt the pain or the anger or the joy? Are you not real? If you can feel, then what makes you think that the rest of us can't? Are you so foolish as to think that we are merely programs and subroutines made simply for your diversion? No one is that stupid. Or are you?

I wonder sometimes, how much of your delusion have you come to truely believe. How do you justify the cruelty, stupidity and cold, calculating sociopathy that lives inside of the meat that crouches in front of your keyboard, waiting to unleash itself on some unsuspecting virtual prey? Do you tell yourself, just like you tell your victims, that it's not real? Or do you own who you are and what you do?

Don't kid yourself.

I needed that put in words... Thanks Boo', you have yet to sease to amaze me...





Tm

Personally I come to AO to kid myself. Thats sort of the point. Isn't it?

But that doesn't mean that I don't realize that there are other living, breathing human beings on the other side of the toons. Its just that I figure they're all here to kid themselves as well. Thus, except in very few cases, I don't really feel that I know the person behind the toon. In most cases, I know who they want me to see, nothing more, nothing less.

We're all kidding ourselves on some level every time we sign-on to AO. You may act and react and behave in much the same way that you do in real life. But regardless, there are no Opifexes or Solituses (is that Soliti?) or Atroxes. There are no Shades or Keepers. There are no leets. There are no yalms. There is no Rubika. (there is no spoon ;p). I could go on, but I think you get the point.

None of its real, except the parts that are.

Thank you, I love it

No matter how brainwashed you believe I am, still love your work Boo

But a crime is a crime, even in a virtual world. Cruelty is cruelty. A lie is still a lie.

Is murder murder? Just an example.

Welcome to Simulation and Simulacrum, in the flesh. No pun intended.

Roleplaying. To roleplay the villain is not a crime. While your statements ring true of the sensitive realists, StBoo, they come dangerously close to the same mindset that accused Dungeons and Dragons of being a tool of Satan in the early 80's.

Between two people, one who is wronged in a roleplaying game and one who does the wronging...when the person wronged takes it personally to the point of a realistic crime, and the person who did the wronging was playing a role in a game...who is really in the wrong?

Answer: Neither. Dogmatism is a scary thing. Some people take roleplaying too far, some people don't believe that roleplaying is possible. When these two meet up, the consequence can be socially catastrophic.

Anonymity is no more a shield than it is an excuse for either party. Emotions cannot be judged through text and graphics without truly knowing the other person first.

I say a crime in VR is not a crime as it is in RL. A virtual crime is an undefined ethical and moral conundrum, depending entirely on the mental state of both victim and predator.

Virtual Reality is a no-man's land, a void of chaotic imagery and senseless simulacrum that is seen and interacted with by a countless number of individuals with a countless number of logical (and illogical) viewpoints about what is right and what is wrong when nothing therein is truly "real".

There are no standards set for ethics or morals. There is no religious, racial, or social segregation. There are no hard and fast laws. The conclusion of intent and the judgement of others is in the eye of the beholder, and there are millions of beholders, all in the same place at the same time.

Stir the soup, and you get a melting pot of ideas. Some of them can be good, some can be dark. Some of them can be intentionally benign, others psychologically catastrophic.

I wouldn't have it any other way.

If crimes are still crimes, we are all hardened criminals, I think. We've killed people with guns, tools, even our own bare hands. We've sent thousands to die, caused genocides that would have wiped out humanity a hundred times. These were virtual...and yet, we may still draw a line in the sand. Is it right for me to say I can blow up civilians, and kill soldiers, but to imitate the Iraqi beheadings, or to rape a player of anarchy online or any other game against her will is wrong?

This is not saying I Disagree. Its a wonderfully written piece, Saint-boo. And its satisfying to see more who realize autonomy of the internet is not a divine right to be a callous and loathsome jackass. More who see that emotions do tap into cables and modems, that we are still human despite the computers we hide behind. Love it, and thank you for posting it.


It's a tough topic, only the enlightened of enlightened here seem capable to argue it with devotion (Tarryk and Saint-boo). Good luck!

As a Marine Corp sniper, I've killed men time and time again. I will have to do so time and time again I'm sure. Do I enjoy it? That's a question I ask myself every damn day. I keep telling myself it not them, then I. It's kill or be killed isn't it? I may not be wanted here where I am at, I am yet wanted by a few. Does it justify what I do? I can not say, I'm no judge. I judge not yet other men or women either. I keep telling myself something good will come of what I do. It's a hard life, being here could drive a man insane. I see where I am at as A.O. brought to life in a sense. It's just about anarchy.
Your words hit home Boo. They really made me think. You have a lot of good, valid points. You bring a new, fresh perspective to those of us who play MMOS. That was definitely a good read.
I will say this, I trust in 2 things here, myself and my rifle. Aye, at times here I feel like a "knight without armor in a savage land".

Even in the context of what we regard as Real Life, humans have a sad tendency to behave less well the larger a gathering of them gets if they do not know one another. We are violent, territorial and dangerous animals with a predatory instinct that mocks our claims of civilization and ascendency over other animals. That is our nature and its difficult to dispute it without reaching for nonsensical and blatantly mythological religeous stories of our creation and uprising. I had to mention this because the tenor of your post seems to point to a belief that I don't see and recognize this. Idealist I may be, but a fool I am not.

The less a person knows and understands another, the less "real" that person is as a mental construct inside the viewer's mind. In daily life most people give no thought whatsoever to the thoughts, feelings and concerns of people who they don't know. The farther removed in relationship and distance, the less thought and concern is triggered in the average person's mind. As reasoning animals, we are most concerned with what is closest to us in a spatial and emotional scale. Our five senses dictate who and what is important to us. So I suppose removing one or more of those points of reference from interaction makes it more DIFFICULT for people to see one another as real and attach importance to how our actions effect them. But still, most of us fancy ourselves to be more than just some animal with an overdeveloped frontal lobe and a pair of opposable thumbs, and thus we strive to be what we percieve ourselves to be.

This is the basic observation I have made of my fellow upright, hairless apes. Not particularly flattering, but more than fair. In spite of all of this, we have the ability to grasp, formulate and act on intangibles and abstract processes. Let's forge onward with this, shall we?

There is a difference between roleplaying and reality, Tarryk, both in virtual and real life. In D&D, one sits across the table from one's playmates. One is forced by one's senses to acknowledge the reality of the person who plays the character. The rational mind KNOWS and acknowledges that person's reality. And when one pauses to answer the real body's call to be fed, to move or to be relieved, OOC manifests itself in a clearly defined way. While OOC, even the most venemous of IC enemies treat each other as what their players are: real people, often friends -- trading their thoughts and enjoying the camaraderie.

In the realm of the virtual, where the players cannot see any physical proof of the existance of the other players...then comes what I have come to call the Anonymity Effect. When there is no context of face, voice, scent and tactile feedback, many minds will come to deny the reality of the person on the other side of the monitor glass -- if only on a subconscious level. It is not merely an effect that happens inside the boundaries of the MMO, but in all human contact within the framework of the virtual extension of the world that most people just call "the Internet" or "the Web" or just "Online".

In the grip of the Anonymity Effect, we seem to mentally... or maybe emotionally devolve. I do not yet know if it is a conscious decision or if it is some involuntary response to being in contact with people we cannot physically sense, but regardless of the root cause, people have a tendency to do and say things that they would never DREAM of doing or saying if they were in physical proximity to the other people with whom they are interacting. Sometimes this allows them to get closer to others and forge intimate bonds of friendship, understanding or affection... but more often it just seems to be used to behave in a very immature, agressive and negative way.

Allow me to cite a very interesting example from recent personal experience inside the boundaries of AO.

While playing a newly spawned enforcer I will refer to as BH in the new backyard, I found myself in a very close fight with the npc robot boss. I lost that fight by a VERY narrow margin. Had I hit him one more time, the boss would have died.

I returned to the site of my demise quickly enough that I could see my body. Next to the body of the boss I had been fighting. Next to a very puzzled MA I will call DIA. I watched my body disintegrate, looted my kill and found something I figured the MA would like. Before I could even initiate trade with DIA, she let loose with the most amazing stream of profanity and verbal abuse I have heard from another human being. It was like being around a three year old who just learned the word "fuck".

It turned out that DIA was most upset to discover that one hit on a boss does not award either experience or looting rights if someone else has done 99% of the damage. "She" took that disappointment out on me, the person who had done 99% of the damage and claimed the reward for my work, for the better part of a half an hour in /tells before I gave up trying to explain game mechanics, decided she didn't really deserve the MA suit I was going to give her and put her on /ignore for behaving like a 10-year-old tool with self control issues.

Because I am accustomed to people behaving like complete asses to one another in MMOs, it didn't really phase me that much and I was already well on my way to forgetting the incident. But a half hour later, I got a tell from another player in the training grounds, inquiring about DIA. Being curious, I listened and responded to this person, and eventually ended up taking DIA off ignore. Because DIA had done something I viewed as a complete anomoly. DIA wanted to apologize.

Somewhere in the very long and kind of freaky conversation that ensued, it came out that DIA was a 42 year old guy who NORMALLY wouldn't DREAM about acting in such an immature, nasty and selfish manner in real life. But because I was basicly what only amounted to an anonymous mess of pixels in a game to him, and he was playing a game, his first reaction was to (and this is his quote, not mine) "attack someone like some immature 13 year old who was taking out his frustrations at being mistreated in the h.s. caffeteria". He was even MORE apologetic when he realized I was female IRL and nearly grovelled in apology when he discovered I was 39. The more complete his mental picture of me became, the more he felt bad about having treated me badly.

DIA's first actions and reactions were extremely typical of what I am talking about in Virtuality. His second reactions were what I would describe as atypical. To put it mildly. DIA and I are still talking. His willingness to treat me like a real person and to afford me basic IRL courtesies impressed me, especially when compared and contrasted to his first actions. They also confirmed something that has been knocking around in the back of my mind for years now. People online, most especially in online interactive games DON'T really think of other players as real people.

This goes WAY beyond Tarryk's devil's advocacy and steering the actual topic in the realm of pure roleplay. Most of the behavior I'm discussing has nothing to do with roleplay. Most interaction that happens in AO has nothing to do with actual roleplay. Actual roleplayers in Anarchy Online are a serious minority. Most of the gamers that participate on our game are not playing an RPG, they are simply playing a complex PvP/FPS game. Many of them don't even grasp the concept of roleplay, and some of them outright reject it.

Actual roleplay, whether it is planned and scripted or ad-libbed within the framework of Anarchy Online is normally very clearly defined and distinguished as roleplay. The game mechanics themselves pretty much ensure that when one player plans to engage in more extreme acts of roleplay (murder, rape, violence, etc) that the involved parties BOTH need to agree to play their roles, thereby IRL tacitly giving their consent to engage. Involved persons are aware that RP is occurring and that what is being enacted is not another player's real thought or action towards themselves as real people. Knowing this, they feel no pain and do not suffer by the words and actions of the roleplayers they are involved with.

Anarchy Online is currently experiencing a serious rash of scammers, thieves and account ripoffs. The person who is not engaged in roleplay who scams another player out of credits or items is stealing something from another person. It does not matter that the items are digital code in a game. They represent a very real investment of time and effort on a real person's part and hold a real, if intangible value to that person. The fact that the thief stole something you cannot physically hold in your hand inside of the framework of a game is immaterial. It is still a real theft. It cannot be excused by using the words "it's not real, it's just a game". It is a very real and personal attack on another person. It's behavior that I feel leans over and sometimes outright falls into the realm of the outright sociopathic. "I want it, so I'm going to take it. Who cares what the guy who has it now thinks?" This isn't making a roll to see if you can successfully pickpocket some NPC. This is neither roleplay nor is it something advertised in the game as a selling point. It's not even part of the intended game mechanics. This is actual theft.

So rationally, one can neither excuse the behavior you see, experience or perpetrate by using the "they're not doing anything wrong because it's just roleplay" line nor compare the views I have presented to the misguided "D&D=satanism" arguement that arose when a bunch of ignorant parents got all bent out of shape by tabletop RPGs. Social conventions and bad behavior don't simply extend to sexuality and sexual deviance on or offline, though I'm sure it might have been easy for a reader to think that was all I was discussing in Virtuality after reading my views on the subject of what I now think of as "That Rape & Murder Game". Especially since most of the readers here really don't know me all that well... most especially this side of me. So I suppose it's not all that unreasonable for some of you to place Virtuality in the context of my posts regarding TR&MG rather than reading it as an overall commentary embracing not just gaming but the entirety of being online in the wider virtual world.

And yes.

I am, once again, disgusted with a lot of people over their behavior.

Go figure.

Still reading what you posted 'Boo', what you have to say is very thought invoking and has caused me to look at things from a whole new perspective. I for one try very hard to do unto others as I would have them do unto me in A.O.
Your style of writing is deeeeep, I like it. I feel like I am grasping at straws here, trying to pay you a compliment, but I am going to go back reading your reply post.

Ungoliant wrote::(
As a Marine Corp sniper, I've killed men time and time again. I will have to do so time and time again I'm sure. Do I enjoy it? That's a question I ask myself every damn day. I keep telling myself it not them, then I. It's kill or be killed isn't it? I may not be wanted here where I am at, I am yet wanted by a few. Does it justify what I do? I can not say, I'm no judge. I judge not yet other men or women either. I keep telling myself something good will come of what I do. It's a hard life, being here could drive a man insane. I see where I am at as A.O. brought to life in a sense. It's just about anarchy.
Your words hit home Boo. They really made me think. You have a lot of good, valid points. You bring a new, fresh perspective to those of us who play MMOS. That was definitely a good read.
I will say this, I trust in 2 things here, myself and my rifle. Aye, at times here I feel like a "knight without armor in a savage land".

Ungoliant, my thoughts are with you. Your real life is something most people can't even really imagine in the pixilated context of a game. To shoot a person in a game or to see someone being shot on television is so distant from the reality of witnessing or participating in an actual shooting...

As a real life soldier, you are asked and expected to do things that are going to profoundly change not just world events, but your essential self. Taking another person's life, even if it happens accidentally... well to say the least, it is a mind-altering experience. Doesn't matter if you love it or hate it, it changes a person forever. To have to do it as a job must be more stressful psychologically than I can really imagine. Unfortunately, excercising finer ponts of individual morality (in regard to the taking of human life) isn't an option in war. Not for the soldiers who fight it at least.

You are placed in a position where it isn't your JOB to judge. Where if you TRIED to do so, you might cost an ally his life or you your own. I can only think that to be a soldier in any war is to be placed in a situation where societal conditioning and standards of ethics are strongly superceded by training, conditioning and animal instinct to survive as these are your only rational perrogatives. To put it simply, I think it IS a question of "you or them" in your situation.

Putting myself in your IRL combat boots, I cannot judge you and find you wanting for killing another person. You aren't doing it for pleasure. You aren't doing it to cause anyone pain or suffering. You aren't doing it out of rage or anger. You are a soldier, following orders to do your duty and "defending the free world". My judgement is that you are doing me a serious service by putting your life on the line so that my life can be safe, comfortable and easy. I'm glad you're there and I hope you come home safe and unhurt and that the things you have and will have to do to get back home don't hurt you emotionally or turn you into someone you can't comfortably live with.

I WISH we didn't need you to do the job you do, but as I've said before, I'm a realist and I don't think too highly of humans in general. If we have to live as a species of violent, agressive neo-monkies, then there will always be a need for regular people like you to do extraordinarily difficult things to protect our option to try and rise above our instinct and baser natures and evolve into something a little better than what we are. So I am grateful.

Thanks so much for your compliments, BTW. I don't tend to expect people to actually grok what I'm expressing. Usually, even if my point is even understood, I bring devil's advocates out of the woodwork to refute me. Eventually I'll learn to write a little better so that my points aren't lost in the pretty word patterns. Maybe. Hopefully sometime in this life. LOL

StBoo, speaking of misunderstanding due to unclear contexts online...

This goes WAY beyond Tarryk's devil's advocacy and steering the actual topic in the realm of pure roleplay. Most of the behavior I'm discussing has nothing to do with roleplay.

Y'know, if I were to delete everything in this thread but your very first post, and show it to anyone in the world, I can pretty much garauntee the majority would immediately assume that you were speaking of "crime" in virtual environments as they would be directly related to the environment they are simulating (i.e. Murder vs. Murder, IG Lying vs. RL Lying, etc). It is, in your first post, impossible to assume you're talking about the rationality behind the behavior known as griefing, which is the main point of your overly defensive and practically insulting reply to my initial response.

I'll end my posts in this thread by saying: I agree with everything you said in your rebuttal, and simultaneously still hold fast to everything I said in my initial reply, since they are in no way related to each other. We were on different channels, and I failed at reading your mind. My apologies.

Hm...intentions differ, yet both are altruistic, and both are valid. I'm not going to edit that last reply of mine, but I'll definitely change my mind on a few points.

I was not being patronized or insulted -- at least not intentionally.

http://www.gridstream.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=4079

However, on THIS topic, in relation to that one: How CAN one be truly sure if the other is wrong or commiting a "crime" online? I mean yes, there are very clear-cut scenarios where it can be reasonably assumed who is right and who is hypersensitive to a situation...but can you ever really be sure?

Going right back to the point that we are all aware of our own intentions, and the point that USUALLY we are under the belief that our intentions are the "right" or "just" way of doing things, even if they are aggressive or wrongful towards another. A child having fun with matches does not understand just what kind of damage can be caused, as it were. And with the internet still practically in it's infancy, are we not all children here in one form or another?

Children with matches. Most of us have benign intentions, some of us have no intentions, but all of us are playing with fire.

I do not agree, and I do not agree.

Those that know me, know that I have never lost my moral center while playing online games. I do not sit and swear at people for taking my loot, or stealing my kill. I laugh at the people that focus on two pixels in the game and when someone changes those two pixels without asking them first they get angry.

I have found just as many people that are jerks as I have found people that are kind helpful people. That is both in RL and IG. But who is to say that being anoumus makes people more prone to immoral acts? I would say that it is just as likely cause RAKs (Random Acts of Kindness) as it is to cause RAVs (Random Acts of Violance).

So I do not agree, and I do not agree.

When I read Boo's post, I honestly didn't see the IG vs RL aspect... I read it 100% as an outburst to griefing... But I will also add that my mind has been occupied with this particular area lately, so I will probably see references to it in most things.
I've had a lot of trouble with it lately, and generally, it is an aspect of human nature that literally disgusts me.

A person who intentionally causes another person missery... Who makes themselves master of someone elses happyness. Simply because they feel like it. Because the can. They are the lowest speck of dirt on the face of this planet... And had I the power, I swear to god, I would rid the world of each and every one of them!

Yes, I realize that is a harsh statement, but I mean every word of it. I've been the butt of RL griefing through most of my childhood as I was, different, to say the least. I never followed fashion, I never aknowledged the "alpha male" nor any single persons popularity. I never resorted to name calling, and even at an age of 8, I found people who did not use propper arguments for what they were saying to be childish, naive, and relatively primitive. So I basically kept to myself untill I found other "thinkers"... Other people who valued a person by their personality, their ability to use their brains and logic and how they treated others. Not their friends, clothes or self acclaimed power.

I've seen every aspect of griefing in my life... And not from the observers point of view. I've felt them. I've lived them.
I've felt the humiliation and overwhelming feeling of being powerless to stop them. And I've felt the rage inside me every single time.

A person who breaks the social rules of everyday life, is, in my oppinion, not entitled to rights... They are not entitled to a "fair" chance nor mercy. Did their victim recieve any mercy? Were they asked before they're lives were invaded upon by another person, whose sole intent was to make them miserable? A person who deems this fair... Only becuase they are "safe", are not needed, nor welcome in society. They will never bring anyone great happyness, nor do those around them good. And their oppinions on what you can do to other people will never vary greatly. Sure they might stop openly belitteling people, as society frowns upon it at later age, but their basic oppinions of other peoples values will never change. They use and abuse... They prey on others, and I honestly believe that whatever they do, they should have twofold back. Unless it's so costly it's not worth it, they will never stop.

As for what Boo' said, I believe she's right. There are no consequences for them. They have free game. A nice set of rules they can bend untill they can cause misery and grief, yet get away with it by blaming it on "game mechanics". They do not care if they just wasted a week of your time... In fact, it'd make them happy. You are not a person, you are a "thing" simply put ingame for their enjoyment. When they log on, it's their needs, and everyone else can go to hell. We can't touch them, so courtasy is not needed.
The world is a better place without them, and I deeply hope it will be one day!

People who thinks it's okey to prey upon those who cannot defend themselves are sick. They've grown up in a world without consequences. Their only punishment ever; someone shaking their finger at them, informing them that if they do it again... They shall shake their finger at them once more.
That wont cut it. Make them feel what it is they are doing to others if they do not understand when to stop. Make them realise that what they do to others WILL and SHOULD happen to them. Make them realise that if they break the rules. The rules no longer apply to them either. And thus, they cannot hide behind them for protection when someone finally DOES do something about it!



If any of that sounded bitter, it's because I am when it comes to this. We discussed hatred in another thread, and I defined how I felt it. I can say that I hate this aspect of human nature with every ounce of my body. From the depth of my being I wish these people an ill fate, yet being rational and realistic, I know they will get away with it for eternity.
I would never dream of matter into my own hands though. That would undermine the civilization I feel they corrupt. So I am powerless to give them a fate all who have been griefed know they deserve.
Yet I am free to hope and dream... So I do.






Tm

Words sting, the same time they can heal online or off - your attitude is always going to remain the same. If you are an asshole, then your an asshole, if you are not an asshole, then you are not an asshole. We all allow our behaviors to go out of hands and find ways to objectify it in a very subjective way ("I was an asshole because I was Drunk" - yet who made you drink?).
One lesson I have learned is that no matter what hardship is hardship - no one can tell me about that. People are always not going to like you, not like what you do, speak, say, wear, or your hairline - and why? Because people have their preferences. My preference, and forgive my English whish is derived from some latin languages like french, is to not give a f**k anymore. I used to - seriously - but what happened was that I was never myself - never whom I wanted to be, wanted to do... oh yes this all happened online - "SHOCKING!".
Online isn't some magical, mystical, wonderful world where everyone is sprouting happy, and the magical elves come out and throw magical elf power all over everything to make you feel good. Online is just like real life - its like New York City. Everything is all in one place, a mixture, melting pot of cultures. You have to push to get through - nicely or otherwise. Doesn't mean you have to be an asshole at all, but you aren't given any breaks - not more than the next user whom pays $30 - 60 for their online connection, and another $15 for an mmo. Oh sorry that's monthly costs. So after the first ripping $75 to get away from your mundane life - and your bad days - you can't be yourself, let it out? Sorry, forgive the ediquite for paying money to do something. I'm not saying not be an asshole, I'm saying conduct yourself anyway that you want to - people will put you into check.
It's like listening to the Apex-High. If you like hip-hop - listen, if you like reggae - listen, if you like techno - listen, if you like DJ Nexeus - listen. If you are going to make any preconcieved notion about a person whom happens to play "black" music, or just randomly want to not like someone for no particular reason outside of the fact that "I don't like that hip-hopcrap its all soo vulger" - don't listen. Wow... wait a moment you mean DJ Nexeus that people don't like you and have told you that your a bad DJ from far away just because you played one song - yes. That's their decision.
Go ahead, kid yourself, have fun you paid $15 to do it. GO ahead, get into my face, have fun! I bark back though, so when I have your arm in my mouth, detached from your body - don't wonder why - you were just being an asshole, and I was hungry.

Quick posting before I go to work...

So you come to a boss mob and you see someone kill it, with just a couple of hits. Later it respawns and they kill it again and later when it respawns they kill it yet again. During this time you've asked them many times if you can get a kill in and all they do is ignore you. To you this seems like they are just being a jurk and they are killing the monster so you can't get the loot. Ruining your fun.

On the other hand look at it this way. You are in an area where there is a boss mob that you need one piece of loot off of but has a roll rate of 1%. So you camp the monster and kill it each time that it appears. Some person then comes into the scene and starts to demand that you leave the monster so he can kill it and get the loot for a change. You've been working on this monster for a few hours and yet it still doesn't drop the loot that you want. In your eyes this guys coming in and griefing you taking away your fun of the game. Like you are realy going to stop killing the monster before you get the loot just so they can get lucky and kill the monster once and get the piece of loot you have been searching for for who knows how long.

So both players are griefing each other? I think not, I think that each player is focusing to much on that one monster. Neither is tring to grief the other, they just don't even know they are doing it.

And again, my inability to frame my thoughts and ideas into a clear, concise and easily understandable point strikes. My message is obscured behind pretty, artful words. I hesitate to believe that it is the message itself that is too foriegn for people to understand, though there is this very jaded, cynical part of me that suggests it might be.

If some of you got something meaningful out of my pathetic attempts at coherence, I'm glad. If you enjoyed it, even if what you got out of it was not what I put into it, I'm glad. But I am frustrated. And in my frustration, I am walking further down my own path away from sharing, or trying to share as it may be, my thoughts.

There was never any imperative that even so much as one of you actually agree. I never expect that, no matter how strongly I believe something or how strongly I word it. My only goals in posting revolve in sparking a certain sense of understanding and recognition, and a friendly, challenging kind of open discussion. And in this I have failed again. As clever as my words seem, and as clear as I am to myself, I remain vague and unable to properly communicate my ideas to nearly anyone else here.

I think maybe it's time I stop beating my head against the wall. All it seems to do is inflame the rest of you. The sharing doesn't really happen. The understanding has no chance of occurring. No one walks away feeling good.

Take care.

All it seems to do is inflame the rest of you.

Actually, I'm the only one that got a little agitated over it, and I shouldn't have. I think you're reaching too far in the self-critique, girl. I appreciate every post you make. You're a seriously deep thinker, and there's not many of us left.

Actually St. Boo - mine isn't a direct response to you but a direct response of situations that I'm going through - and my own want to vent.