GridStream and the state of internet radio.

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GridStream and the state of internet radio.

Postby Gridfan » Sat Jan 21, 2017 2:50 am

This is a semi-rant/semi-explanation of how things are the way they are around here, sprinkled with a heavy dose of personal opinion to boot.

Recently GSP moved from using a Shoutcast v1 server to a Shoutcast v2 server so that all of you that use Chrome and the GridStream Webplayer to tune in are able to continue to do so.

You (the listeners) have an easy time dealing with the GSP stream, you either go to player.gridstream.org and press the play button, or you click the stream.m3u link (or the "Stream" part of the GSP name at the top) if you use a 3rd party player or you download our GridStream Player for Windows. Or maybe you got some app or internet radio box that you can search for GridStream on.

For a DJ it's a little more complex so let me start by showing how a radio stream goes from a DJ or a playlist and through the server and to you the listeners:
DJ > Winamp > Source DSP > Shoutcast Server > Winamp > Listener

Now some DJs may use something else than Winamp, and not everyone may use the Winamp Shoutcast Source DSP, but all DJs must connect to the Shoutcast server. Seems complicated? It gets worse!

There are two types of Shoutcast, one called v1 and another called v2. Now v1 has been around for more than a decade, while v2 has been around maybe half that time. Most tools and players only support v1, now this is not a major issue as a Shoutcast v2 server also support v1 connections.

OK! So things don't really seem that bad now do they? Well.. It gets worse!

picard-facepalm.jpg


There is a bug in Shoutcast v2.4 servers that only manifest themselves if a Shoutcast Source use v2 and a Player (like Winamp) uses v2. This bug is supposedly fixed in Shoutcast v2.5 but the stream host that GridStream currently uses (Simplex) has not upgraded yet, and they may or may not be able to unless the user interface they use (Centovacast) is updated. So currently GSP DJs are forced to broadcast using Shoutcast v1 mode, because GSP doesn't wish to break the stream for those of you that use Winamp or other v2 capable players.

Now even if the stream server is updated to v2.5 there are still issues with it, now i (Gridfan) have reported this on the official Winamp and Shoutcast forum but it could take months before that is fixed. And if it's fixed it may take months before Centovacast is updated and it may take a few months before Simplex update their server. So there are 3 points of dependencies here that are beyond GSPs control, at worst it may take a year to get certain things fixed/changed if we just wait.

Winamp, Source DSP, Shoutcast Server and Shoutcast.com are currently owned by Radionomy (which bought Nullsoft a few years ago). All this stuff was maintained by pretty much a single guy (DrO) up until last year or the year before at which point DjEgg took over that duty, so you can imagine that fixes won't be quick to anything for quite some time.

Bugs with Shoutcast v2.4 (and v2.5) are weird. For example Broadcasting using v2 mode on v2.4 servers messes up some players (as v2 sends artwork/year/genre/album info), this has been fixed in v2.5 servers though.

With Source DSP v2.3.5 it's possible to set a DJ or User ID, but if v1 mode is used and it contains spaces it breaks title updates, under v2 mode it works as intended. Now why do I mention this? Because shoutcast.com requires something called a AuthHash if GSP wish to be listed on shoutcast.com so why not enable that then? Because if we do that then the DJs loose their ability to set show names.

You can see the show name in the Webplayer and the Windows player, and you can see it when you connect using other players (but they do not autoupdate), the forum and website also shows this info. If a AuthHAsh is used then this info will always be just "GridStream Productions", and since the DJ/User ID thing is sorta broken we can't use that either.

And GSP can't go back to a Shoutcast v1 server either as that would break the Webplayer for everyone using Chrome (v55+) so GSP is stuck between a rock and a hard place, and not in a pleasant way.

You might think "if Shoutcast serve suck so bad why not use Icecast?" oh the thought have occurred but there are issues it that too (always something huh?).

While Icecast could be used (and is much better) it does not support Shoutcast streams, it only does "normal" audio streams. Which means listeners may not get to see the song title when it changes (it sort of depends on the player and the tools a DJ uses).

But there is another issue (because of-course there is right?) and that is while SImplex supports Icecast, somebody else does not. Streamlicensing which GSP uses to handle the royalty licensing and stuff so GSP remains legit does not support Icecast. they do support KH-Icecast which is a edited version of Icecast but Simplex does not support that.

And that's just the technical side of things. Now add to that the restrictions (thanks to the DMCA) that a DJ can not play more than two songs of the same artist/collection in a row per hour, and not more than 3 from the same artist/collection in a two hour period.

Now you might think that Streamlicensing could just fix their systems to support Icecast and they could but Icecast v2.3 does not allow Streamlicensing to retrieve the listener stats/info that one of the three acronyms (BMI, ASCAP, SESAC) require, KH-Icecast does make this info retrievable.

Icecast 2.5 will have this extra info retrievable but its' been stuck in beta for over a year now with no apparent changes.

So if it's not the royalty collection agencies or the music labels trying to kill off independent small internet radio stations then the tech solutions available does a almost equally good job at screwing things up.


Now lets slide ungracefully from tech stuff to legal and political stuff:

And before anyone says "But the collection agencies and labels are just trying to get the artist the money they've earned.". I call bullshit on that.
I'm an artist myself (I've released 3 commercial albums in the past) and from time to time one of my tracks may be played on GSP, but I never see that money. The acronyms/labels take that money and then it vanishes. I never gave them permission to take it, I'm not in their lists/registries but they still claim the money. Id' call that monetary theft and fraud. They may shout about piracy but they do much worse things themselves.

I could register with a PRO (Performance Royalty Organization) in my own country but then I forgo control of my own music. If I wanted to publish my own music on my own website I'd have to report this to the PRO and if I where to sell it then I'd have to pay myself a royalty via the PRO (which takes a cut obviously, WTF?!) A artist is no longer in control of their own music (what the hell is the point of copyright then?).

And not only that but in many countries the royalty payout it determined Not by actual plays (few of these agencies bother to check the lists), for over the air and various streaming solutions (like internet radio) they simply look at the Top 100 or so hit lists or sales charts and divy up the cash based on that. And I guarantee you small artists are nowhere on those. The only money they see are usually from direct digital or physical sales.

GSP has to use Streamlicensing to stay legit otherwise big scary lawyers will wave their guns while complaining about the poor artists like Kanye West :horse:

Bear in mind that there are no alternatives to Streamlicensing, there used to be three but the other two (Loudcity and Live365) had to close shop due to increased royalty costs. Trying to deal with the acronyms directly becomes prohibitively expensive compared to a community pooling solution that Streamlicensing provides.

And GSP going 100% Creative Commons and Public Domain and direct Artist Deals probably won't happen in any foreseeable future (DJs and listeners alike love "regular" music too much for that).

So GSP kinda have to stick with Streamlicensing and if they do not support Icecast 2.4 then GSP can't use Icecast 2.4 and if Icecast 2.5 is still not released then we can't use that either, and if Simplex do not support KH-Icecast then we can't use that either. GSP could change streaming host providers but Simplex have worked well so far and changing to a new and unproven (as far as GSP is concerned) provider is always risky as getting a stable but still cheap streaming server is not that easy.

And with Chrome v55 and later not supporting shoutcast v1 (over ports other than port 80 and 443) then shoutcast v2 is the only choice currently and we'll have to work around bugs and issues that brings with it.

A few of you might say "but wait, why not use port 80 then?" we can't (currently) due to the way Simplex do their stream server setup, port 80 is not available for shoutcast use.

These things are what keeps me (Gridfan) awake at night sometimes .

But there are a few solutions or ideas I have on how to work better with Shoutcast v2, part of the issue is the horribly outdated and somewhat buggy Source DSP. I'm working on something that might allow it to be replaced by something else. And in the long run there may be something that can be done with the server as well.


I just though you listeners/GSP fans might want to know a few details and issues that GSP face that you might not be aware of. Also note that this is not unique to GSP, other internet radio stations also face very similar issues to this.

While this may not have been a proper Behind-The-Scenes look at how GSP work I do hope it gave some insight to what concerns GSP as far as streaming technology goes. Heck, a few of the DJs may not have been so aware of all this either. But me (Gridfan), Shigy and the Station Managers and veteran DJs are aware of this.

While some technical changes here and there may not make frontpage news I (Gridfan) will try to make a small post in the forum when they occur, just to keep you listeners in the loop.

GSP would not be here if it wasn't for you the listeners. GSP is the oldest still actively broadcasting MMO radio station in the world now (I'm fairly certain). And if you like GSP and internet radio in general then keep an eye on related legislation in your respective countries and write your officials if their decisions threaten what you like.

And don't forge to tell everyone how cool GSP is, tell your friends and family (if you haven't already). TSW and AO are cool places to hang out and party even if you aren't a typical gamer, and heck... AO is even free to play.


There are no major technical changes planned (currently), so if you do notice any issues please let us know. We think we got stuff nailed down around here but ya never know, we (Me, Myself, I, Gridfan) might have overlooked something. So if the stream isn't working it might be my fault, or at the least you all get to yell at me a little. :D
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Gridfan
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Location: Trondheim, Norway

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