Dateing Courtship or Just SEX

[Jugsmalone]

I am really curious on this in todays world is romance dieing. From the very first day I met my husband he was a gentleman he opened doors wiped off seats offered me his coat and treated me very much like a Lady,,,not expecting anything more than an enjoyable day or evening with the opposit sex,, sure he had desires and fantasies and dreams but it was not well I am dineing and danceing her so she better damn well put out kind of date.

It seems to me that dateing is a lost art or just not the same any more, My daughter went on a date a first date with a certain guy a week ago, they had discussed what to do in advance and decided on Brunch and a early movie, sounded like a nice first date right?? Well he was a nice enough guy to meet nice smile clean good self esteem from a first impression at the door,,, but it somehow ended there tho I did not expiernce the rest of the evening this is how it went ... they wailked to the car She waited at the door for it to be opened he walked to his door opened it got in and looked at her, still waiting at the door, he reached over the seat and pushed the door open, she closed it and waited, he did fineally get out and go around to open her door, and said what was that all about, she replied well are we not on a date, he says yeah uhh whatever, and rolled his eyes... they go to brunch chat seems to be going ok she and he like a lot of the same things cool , the bill comes he looks at it says to her $11.52 please, Tyg blinks looks at him frowns and hands him $15.00 , and he gets up not leaving a tip. she leaves one on the table, he goes to the register pays the bill and puts the change in his pocket, they get to the movie, as he goes to get the tickets he says $9.00 Now she is sort of pissed but hands him a ten.... as they enter the theater he says well we just ate so I do not suppose you want anything right, NO she answers and follows him to get inside and watch the show not wanting to speak to him at all by now..... The movie ends and they leave he is still not opening any doors and by now she couldn't care less.... He wants to discuss the movie she says she did enjoy the movie and that was the end of her part of the conversation... on the drive back She is completely silent ... he doesn't get out to walk her to the door says maybe she would like to go out again the following week and could he give her a call... She replies NO Thank you , gives him a kind of gay handshake and leaves slamming the car door on her departure..Now correct me if I am wrong BUT in my opinion this is not in anyway a date is it?????

[Tarryk]

There's all kinds of things wrong here, and I have to admit it's not entirely on him, it's kind of a mixed bag of expectancies here. What follows is just an observation, not any kind of judgment on my part. Just a personal opinion that probably won't match other people's, so take it with the grain of salt that it is. I don't mean any of this to be insulting or demeaning to anyone at all, it's just an outlook on life, and that's hard to keep tactful while remaining true.

Starting from the top, when they approached the car, you say that he went to his side and got in, expecting her to be fully capable of entering the vehicle without assistance. She simply stood there expectantly and refused to budge until he got out, walked around, and opened it?

At this particular point, I can only say for sure that I would indeed have behaved differently than he. I'd have immediately made it very clear at that point that I do not believe in Arthurian chivalry, and will not be opening the car door for her. If it is convenient and helpful for me to open a door for a lady, I will do so every time. Going through the motions of opening a vehicle door for a woman is neither convenient nor helpful. It is a waste of time, and it's insulting to the intelligence and strength of character for both people. She is perfectly capable of getting in the car herself, and I will have no part in being treated like a slave to her will, nor should she have any part in being treated like a child by me. We are not roleplaying, we are dating. The restaurant door, now that is convenient and helpful, and expect me to hold it open for you.

Here in the 21st century, I'd expect her to do the same. Unless of course she'd like to waive her right to vote, be treated like an emotionally enslaved breeding tool and have me promise by law not to beat her with a stick wider than my thumb. I mean, if we're going to regress to that age of chivalry, might as well put all the goodies in that came with it, right?

HOWEVER, money is a different thing altogether. First off, when planning for a date, neither of them should have entered in with ANY assumptions about the other person. Again, this is modern days, and everyone is equally responsible for their own financial state, and everyone is equally completely flat-ass broke. So do not ever EVER assume that someone else is going to pay based on a tradition born of females not working for money. He is definitely at equal or more fault for this situation, because if he asked her out, he should immediately have said in the asking that he would cover the expenses.

It is a matter of honor to be both prepared and righteous. If he didn't have the money to pay for everything, he damn well should have said so well before the date night so that she would know to even bring cash. And then, if she was under the impression that dates don't happen unless the man pays for everything, she would at least still have the option to call the whole thing off.

I don't think this guy has much honor. He could probably take a few lessons in tact and politeness, and he could use an entire course in planning ahead. He's not date material, and I agree with Tyg that she probably shouldn't see him again.

But I give the warning now before the next date with another guy might happen: Expect nothing; be prepared for everything. Men are confused nowadays, because many women out there demand equality and are willing to step up to the plate and take it, and would likely have scoffed at him for even suggesting opening a car door for her like she was helpless. Others like Tyg (or not, just based on her actions here) are the opposite, aghast and scornful that he would even suggest NOT opening the car door for her. Neither is really right or wrong, per se. But my advice? Don't fall into either niche. If he opens the car door, thank him. If he doesn't, be a big girl and do it yourself, and don't be mad at him for expecting that you are capable and strong-willed. Either way, respect for each other can be maintained.

Unless of course it's guys like this, completely unprepared and ready to go dutch as though it were an unspoken given. He would end up being a freeloader to the working woman. So don't bother with that.

[Tarryk]

It also occurs to me that in all fairness, I have to offer the other disclaimer: All that came from a thirty-something dude who hasn't had a truly successful date... EVER. Seriously, don't listen to me.

[Switchfront]

HOWEVER, money is a different thing altogether. First off, when planning for a date, neither of them should have entered in with ANY assumptions about the other person. Again, this is modern days, and everyone is equally responsible for their own financial state, and everyone is equally completely flat-ass broke.

LOL those set of lines right there, were priceless. So true.

I'd have to agree that T hit it on the spot when saying don't expect anything. The dude should have made it quite clear that he had no intention of covering the expenses.. given the fact he didn't, makes him a loser in my book for giving false pretenses. She doesn't have to find a King Arthur riding in on his noble steed.. just someone with some common sense.

No worries T, whether those 30 years had a successful date or not.. that's experience lol!

[Hais]

Well, I treat my gf with the proper respect she deserves. Yes, I do occasionally open the car door for her... but she gets upset if I do... apparently she is capable of doing that herself Every time we stay at the other's house, we dont go with the intention of hitting the bed... we just wind up there anyways lol. I do my best to avoid talking about my ex wife (as in the way she treated me), which is sometimes hard, simply out of respect for the fact that my gf is the one I am with, and she doesn't need to hear that stuff week in, week out.

The first true date that I have ever had (in 24 1/2 yrs of life) was with my current girlfriend, relationship number 8. Even then, I didn't know what was expected of me. All I knew was the generic movie and dinner thing. We have only been together for a month tomorrow, yet we feel as if it has been alot longer. We have already been discussing long term plans. That is because I treat her properly, I let her do what she insists on doing her self (such as car doors!) And do for her what she can't do herself, usually before she asks, coz I'm so busy staring at her I can see any problem before she can voice it lol

[Jenibell]

I'm a girl in the age of dating in the here and now so I guess I'll try and add some light to my views (also I've got nothing better to do )

I was that girl who hated a guy to open a door for me or pay for my meals but I've learned that some guys feel the need to take care of a girl so I have learned to find it kind of cute.
I don't want a guy to nor demand a guy to go out of his way to get my car door but if my door is closer than his awesome... My brother and step dad even open the door for me my mom and my sister in law every time.

If I get to the door first than great.

I do got to say it is something I look for on a first date though, how much are they'll willing to impress me when we first go out.
I always bring money to cover myself if I have to, but a first date if they don't pay I think there only after friendship.
But if I'm already in the relationship I'll pay just as much as I want the guy too. I really don't want a guy I'm dating to go broke for me.
So yes I agree with Jugs and I agree with TK

[Firia]

Chivalry is not dead.
Chivalry has been modernised.

Seeing as how I don't really see the male side of dating, like, ever, I can really only throw in how I handling me dates. Keeping in mind, like TK mentioned earlier, I too am a dating catastrophy.

My version of modern chivalry consists of equal and fairness. That doesn't nessessarily mean splitting the bill, but instead, "I'll get this one, you can get the next. " Getting a door if I'm right there is fine. I don't think I'd want someone --anyone, reaching before me every time a door barred my forward momentum. I have hands, and the common ability to turn knobs.

(Side note, at work we have these wheelchair buttons at work for the elderly and disabled. It irks me everytime I see someone perfectly able push it rather than open the door of their own strength. Waste of energy, waste of ability, and waste of time.)

I think handing over ones jacket if it's cold is great! But dusting a spot to seat is again, one of those wasted abilities.

Modern chivalry is about equal strength and ability. In years gone by, women have been equalised within a few margins of perfectly equal with men. There are still some kinks to be worked out in the fine print, and I've noticed that some men even harbor the far gone idea that their women needs to be taken care of like a sick child. There are still places where the other can show their appriciation for their date, but it's not like it used to be.

Without hearing the other side to the date story, I can only offer the initial observation that the guy didn't sound to terrably interested, or perhaps under experianced at dating or perhaps human interest. Perhaps poor upbringing, or listening to "to much of that damn rap music."

This is just a different age. To expect that anything from the previous age to carry over is asking a bit much.

[Jugsmalone]

OK first I should explain something here since I am much older and dated long ago, things have changed but also Tyg only saw how a man treated a woman by her fathers example and she too has not actually dated much, Not a Date Date, and the guy in question after many many conversations about how he treated a woman like a princess and was a hopeless romantic Proved not to be as he said he was. I do not think a man should go out of his way to open a door and I am capable as is she but he did have to pass her side to get to his side of the car door..and it was a First date. Secondly Tyg also always has the ability to pay her way and she has many male friends she does go dutch with or exchanges Ill get this you get the next one.. but after she did give him the money and figured ok not so bad he kept the change and did not return it to her ,he left no tip and assumed she would not want popcorn. This was what angered me when she told me of the date. To split the bill is fine and no big deal to not open a door can be over looked but to not leave a tip no matter how small or to return change to a stranger is in my outlook just wrong..Also because I know how giving Tyg is had he said I really would like to go out sometime and get to know you better but my finances just do not allow that at this time she would have planed the date and made it special enough for him not to even fell badly about expenses and most likely she would have filled his gas tank as well..But I just think to talk up a big show of how great you are than be an ass is wrong.

[Tarryk]

You have a very good point there, Jugsy. And that's certainly information that changes the outlook on the situation. If he talked up the game of chivalry and a certain kind of mannerisms on his own behalf, then turned around and went against everything he said, that's just pathetic and wrong. This guy apparently has nil respect for people. Unfortunate.

[Jugsmalone]

I just do not understand the way things are happening today, it confuses me and worries me as well, I understand that finances make it very hard to do many things and its just something I have never thought about. I have in the very very past gone on many many very nice dates with guys that did not have money and it never bothered me at all they were great dates. Its all about doing your homework and imagination, I have gone on a date where we washed other peoples cars to raise money for kids to go to summer camp I had a blast we got wet soapy had fun laughed and did something for others all in one date. Had a date going to a car show looking at cars and talking to people a coke and hot dog and fun Not expensive at all I have enjoyed a day in the park flying kites and having a picnic lunch on a blanket and just talking and discussing life in general.. Also had many dates that were Breakfast dates , and just for information Breakfast is the cheapest meal you can have and it is the best one of the day. To share a breakfast at the start of your day with someone you enjoy being with makes the rest of your day go well. I guess what I am looking for here is how do dates go in today's world and what do you all expect,,,,,,,Trust me my dating days are way over but my daughters is just beginning and I being a mother hen would like to know what to look for and also know how to help her have a successful date. She thinks something is wrong with her and I do not see it. So any suggestions and explanations would very much be appreciated form this concerned mom.

[Dithyramb]

Regarding the concept of the man paying for everything on the date, this is how I look at it:

If the guy invited you on a date, then in essence you are the guys 'guest' so to speak, and as such it is implied in the situation (unless agreed to beforehand) that he is to be paying for everything (within reason). After all, he invited YOU.

[Tastyvixen]

Its always nice when a man opens the door for me, pulls out my chair, and helps me with my coat but its definitely not a must. In fact when it comes to doors if I'm the first one there I will hold it open for the man until they give me a look or tell me to go ahead.

As for paying for the dinner. I've always understood it to be that the person who asked the other out will be paying for the dinner and so far that has never failed me. I do always take enough cash to pay just in case but he is definitely not gaining any points by having asked me out and then expecting me to pay for the dinner.

I have also payed for the meal a few times when I'm the one who asked the man out.

I have no problem picking up my half of the check if its discussed before the date. To expect the person you invited to pay though is rather rude.

[Tarryk]

Regarding the concept of the man paying for everything on the date, this is how I look at it:

If the guy invited you on a date, then in essence you are the guys 'guest' so to speak, and as such it is implied in the situation (unless agreed to beforehand) that he is to be paying for everything (within reason). After all, he invited YOU.

Exactly correct, IMO. Ye who asks, foots teh bill.

[Kaitentou]

Even though I'm one of the newer members of the forum, here's my person look on this whole situation, even though some of it has been stated before.

As far as I'm concerned, if a male asked a female on a "date" I think the male should have to cover the expenses, due to the fact it was his "brilliant" idea in the first place. The car door part, it would've been nice if he had opened the door at first, but, some of us male versions of homo sapiens are too damn lazy and/or stubborn to do as such.

To be honest, in this day and age, she was kind of lucky. Some dates are just Dinner, Movie, Bedroom, then sometimes they never talk again, that's just the way life is for some people, unfortunately.

On a different note, when she said No thank you, at least she was being polite about it, if it were me, I would've said, "No, Go away" Then I would've thrown a potato at him just for giggles then slam the door.

[Jenibell]

". I don't think I'd want someone --anyone, reaching before me every time a door barred my forward momentum. I have hands, and the common ability to turn knobs. "

Firia its actually quite fun to race someone to the door to see who can open it first

I'm not really sure what I would do on a date anyways cuz I don't even remember the last one I've been on...
maybe my senior prom hahaha none of the other times I went out with guys where not real "dates" just hanging out neither here nor there and maybe one or the other paid never really mattered... and most of the time I'm the one driving or we meet somewhere


Also note to self never ask Dithy or TK out on "dates" they'll make me pay

I so just thought of something if when the other pays its a date my last "date" was with Veld and Kira hahahaha

[Ashval]

I so just thought of something if when the other pays its a date my last "date" was with Veld and Kira hahahaha

Yeah, and we didn't get no lovin. What's the world coming to?

[Shikome]

Like Tarryk I am a dating catastrophy, never once had a successful date... Oddly enough not because I didn't act like a gentleman towards the lady in question, but because I did, now I in no way am defending the guys actions at all...
But I must say look at it from the standpoint that some women, no matter what will nit pick if you do too much or too little on a date (thats just the jaded view of a rivethead there)... For instance, I once did everything "right" and at the end she had a go at me for it... So ok, I adjusted my decorum on the next date with a different girl, went 50/50, I paid for stuff, openned doors when it was helpful and constructive to do so.. and yep you guessed it, same result...
I've never gone to the extent of doing nothing though on a date, my mother raised me to be as gentlemanly as possible and because of that I will always try to be.

Chivalry and romance isn't dead, it's just modernised for some

[Vallikat]

Ok, I'm going to give my views here even though they've already been stated.

I applaud Tyg for standing up for her beliefs especially when chivalry was implied going in.

For me, these things are not so important. You can treat me right without having to open my doors and stuff. It's nice. But it's certainly not necessary and generally I'll get the doors that I arrive at first and would expect that whoever I'm with gets the ones he arrives at first.

As to paying I expect that the person who did the asking will do the paying. Unless you discuss it before hand and decide to share the cost. This works out really well in many cases because by not putting the financial burden on any one person you will find that you can do more. However, with my boyfriend now, he paid for all of our dates in the beginning. But once we became more serious we started sharing the costs more. I didn't think it was fair of me to expect him to always pay if we were going out a couple times a week.


My question is for those that say that they have never had a successful date. What does that mean exactly? You never found true love or you never had a date that resulted in second date or what exactly? I'm just curious.

[eadaoin]

I've been hesitating jumping into this thread because I don't have much experience in the dating realm and what I've observed of those around me didn't exactly match what I'd come to consider dating. By the time I decided to start paying attention to my peers "dating" habits I was basically an overgrown street kid, so I saw a lot of people get recycled amongst each other, with the main questions coming into the hook-up being "Do they have money?" and "Will they put out?" It was very rare for someone to go through the motions/formalities of an actual date, and even rarer for a "relationship" to last beyond a week or so.

Sounds kind of callous, even though I tried to put in better terms. Just wanted to point out that the vast majority of my dating knowledge comes from a pretty select group, or at least one that seemed to follow a lot of negative trends. Keeping that in mind, prepare for some randomness.

My first date with Stiofain consisted of getting tea at a local coffe house. He opened doors and paid for the tea, did everything as gentlemanly possible given how awkward we both were (I think I might have tripped over him as he tried to pull my chair out for me)(certainly wasn't expecting that). I don't know what expectations he came in with, if any, but I didn't have a clue as to what we were supposed to do. We had our tea, we had our seats, now what?

Nothing.

At least for a while. A bunch of awkward silence, goofy smiles, and poor eye contact. Then I decided to shoot him with a rubber band. Whoo, what an ice breaker. We spent the rest of the time shooting rubber bands off the ceiling, trying to get them to land on each other's head. We even got another table to join in for a little while. It was the most fun I'd had in a long time.

So, Eadaoin, you may be wondering, what's the point?

And I say, the moral of the story is: If you don't go into something prepared, you might just get shot with a rubber band.

All goofiness aside, I tend to sway pro-info. This is probably a recap, but I think pre-get-together conversations can help clear up a lot of unknowns. You don't have to drill the other person, but discussing how both of you would like the date to go could be helpful overall and provides a chance to kind of scope each other a bit.

As far as opening doors and the like, it depends on personal opinion and experience. It might seem awkward talking about these things with the person you're going out with, especially if you have a set view concerning these things, but I'd personally like to know either way. I tend to go out of my way to open doors for people, just because I like to, but I know it bothers some people. Stiofain always insists on opening the door for me and/or me entering first, but he has a lot of seemingly outdated habits along these lines (like how ladies should walk on the inside when walking down/up the street, and you can only hold his left hand/arm so his sword arm is free)(you know, just in case he has to ward off assailants and kick some ass in passing). It's odd, and can be annoying at times, but it's kind of nice at the same time.

So, to tell a long story short (if it's not already too late), I think I've strayed once again. Did any of that make sense?

[Ashval]

Ead, there are few things in life as romantic as shooting someone with a rubber band. Great story.