Ave Maria

[Vallikat]

Ave Maria – Catholic town built around a Catholic University and owned by a Pizza Magnate.

The more I read about this, the more I begin to wonder how long it will take until they attempt to secede from the US. If you’ve read Snow Crash, you’ll see why this has me a little disconcerted. I mean it could be like Rev. Wayne’s Pearly Gates and CosaNostra all rolled into one.

It concerns me because if this succeeds and they end up making this a Catholic only town, how long before other similarly exclusive towns begin to crop up? Not just Catholic towns, but Jewish towns, or Irish towns or ...well let's just say things could get very ugly, very fast.

[Ichyro]

America's own little Taliban, eh?

It's a risk for any nation which has as much division as we have. Sure, the conflict of States rights vs a Federal government has seemingly declined ever since the Civil war, but there are many other divisions (the chief one now being religion and abortion) which threaten it, though only the worst will actually choose to seceede.

It bothers me that they will attempt to so readily combine church and state. The federal government is not the only force which can begin to extert religious practices onto the population..

[Tacz]

I think its wonderful that such issues are being dealt with on the local level. Personally, I don't think any of the issues mentioned there are the business of the federal government, and in many cases, not even the state government.

[Vallikat]

Whether or not you think its their business isn't really the point. Sure fine good great, separation of church and state should mean this is fine. But I guess I'm not so much bothered about it being a Catholic town. I am bothered about infringing on people's rights. Let's say, for example, you live in Ave Maria and you're perfectly fine in your Catholic world. Let's say, though, you meet someone who happens to be *shock* divorced and *double shock* Jewish!!! Let's say you fall in love. Let's say you figure hey maybe this person is on to something with this whole Jewish thing and you want to convert. So...what? You have to move from town now? Well technically at this point they can't make you do that. But I would wager they're going to make you want to (and before anyone says it, yes I figure you'd probably want to move anyway, shut it!! you're missing the point). Let's just make this an all white town as opposed to Catholic town. No? Well certainly it has happened in this country before. So if this guy buys a town, makes his own rules, and gets away with it (not saying he will, just saying "if") then what's to stop some other guy from buying a bunch of land and putting "White's Only" sign on the gate?

Here's something else that bothers me. This is happening in Florida where the Governer is one Jeb Bush. What's to say he won't be inclined to look the other way if they want to do a little rule bending and brain washing in the very conservative (and probably mandatory Republican)town of Ave Maria?

Anyone for red kool-aid?

[MajorOutage]

Think of it as a glorified gated community. It can't be legally recognized as a town, as to do what they're talking about it would need to be 100% private property.

But as long as that's the case, they are well within their right to allow/disallow access to whomever they chose. And all the more power to them for actually exercising it, especially in these days of people being so insanely afraid of offending each other.

[Vallikat]

It is a town. It does have to follow the laws of the state of Florida and the Government of the US. All I'm saying is that what they want...what the founder wants...is a bit more restrictive than that. My concern is whether or not he "could" get what he wants. Perhaps he "could" bend the right rules, find the right loopholes, and find a way. So you might think "fine, let them have their restrictive little town if that's what they want." But I just think *if* it gets to that it sets a dangerous precedent. *if* it gets to that, it opens the door for other little restrictive towns.

Anyway, I put the line about Snow Crash in the beginning to let you know that I was extrapolating this out to an almost redicuous proportion. But I was trying to open a dialogue about what might happen if other such towns did start popping up all over. One small town in a far corner of the country isn't so harmful. More of them spread all over, might start to have an impact.

[Ichyro]

It is a town. It does have to follow the laws of the state of Florida and the Government of the US. All I'm saying is that what they want...what the founder wants...is a bit more restrictive than that. My concern is whether or not he "could" get what he wants. Perhaps he "could" bend the right rules, find the right loopholes, and find a way. So you might think "fine, let them have their restrictive little town if that's what they want." But I just think *if* it gets to that it sets a dangerous precedent. *if* it gets to that, it opens the door for other little restrictive towns.

Anyway, I put the line about Snow Crash in the beginning to let you know that I was extrapolating this out to an almost redicuous proportion. But I was trying to open a dialogue about what might happen if other such towns did start popping up all over. One small town in a far corner of the country isn't so harmful. More of them spread all over, might start to have an impact.

And there is no denying they may very well pop up. I've heard that Tenesse is wishing to do what Alabama has done, and ban the sale of dildos (or any sexual toy? Not sure which it was) within state boundaries, combined with the banishment of any sort of abortion in one of those western states, and the infamous attempt of teaching creationism, which thankfully failed.

I saw a beautiful Commercial that's composed such thinking. It had a hospital where every patient was diagnosed to have blood letting to cure whatever ailed them, and it's about what I'm feeling with this Ave Maria and other such attempts to bring Religion into our predominantly Secular Government.

Religious Governments did not help the Gauls and Athenians come up with Democracy, nor do I feel they had the primary part to play in the growth of freedom of speech in the west (Though it coincided with some of the enlightenment's concepts which may have dealt with religion).

Religious Government's gave us the wonder of the Opressive Pharoahs, Tyrannical Emperors of Rome, and today? They gave us the Mid-east, and from the situation with Israel (And much to blame on their heads, not just the Palestinians or Muslims) to the fundementalism which rears its ugly head and seems to be an accepted way of life to many of the governments in the region (in particular, Iran). It's a far-off potential of what we could come to gain if America begins to shake off it's secular Government.

What happens when we start to have the cocktail of poverty and inner-city crime being combined with religious toltalitarianism? What would happen if the Immigrants from Mexico were facing communities where Protestant religion is dominant and it conflicts with their Catholic Faith, and they witness the growing mentality of kicking them back into poverty, and feel increasingly desperate?


A bit melodramatic on my part, but letting ourselves slip into communities were religion is dominant will start us on a slippery slope we will have trouble getting ourselves over, whether we start to fall now or later.

[Mummu]

uh.. Snowcrash, dont remind me.
The worst book I 've ever read.

Think I read somewhere that there are some private properties in the usa that fullfill 3 out of 4 points to become an own state.
size
population
money
they just cant become there own state since they are already part of one...

Could also be that I m writing snowcrash here

[Oddysee]

Ich bin der Mummu! Rawr!

(Yeah yeah, a typo or six. Haven't written german since the 9th grade.)

Rawr!!! Mum'! I've been wonderin where the hell you disappeared off to!


Tm

[FoxyJama]

With the treatment of Catholics in Ireland during the past century, I say more power to them to set up a place where their values are encouraged. I do see where Valli is coming from on the "where does it stop?" but honestly, where you live is a choice, not something anyone is *making* you do. But already in this county cities have the authority to impose any of the mandates that they are suggesting without reprimand from the federal authorities (such as not allowing pharmacies to sell contraceptives). I would have a much bigger problem with it if they were trying to make these changes to an existing town, but if they are trying to create their own community, one which is founded based on their belief system, that is really how America got started in the first place.

[Ichyro]

With the treatment of Catholics in Ireland during the past century, I say more power to them to set up a place where their values are encouraged. I do see where Valli is coming from on the "where does it stop?" but honestly, where you live is a choice, not something anyone is *making* you do. But already in this county cities have the authority to impose any of the mandates that they are suggesting without reprimand from the federal authorities (such as not allowing pharmacies to sell contraceptives). I would have a much bigger problem with it if they were trying to make these changes to an existing town, but if they are trying to create their own community, one which is founded based on their belief system, that is really how America got started in the first place.

Foxy, I ask this in debate and not aggression or anything mean and not fluffy, , but what would you say if this was a muslim town and they wished to introduce Sharia Laws?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sharia#Laws_and_Practices_Under_Sharia

Our supreme court has a ruling which gives the states the right to decide whether or not to have abortion, yet this town is wishing to bring that right in on itself. Our court's also probably have a ruling regarding domestic abuse, yet one of the Sharia Religious laws is evidently the right to hit your wife if you deem it so.

While many of those laws may be far more extreme than those the Catholic Town would install, it does bring up the point of whether or not a town has the right to pursue its own religious laws, when this place may not even fufill the requirements of being it's own town(?) and also, whether or not said laws contradict those of the state or the government.

Having a non-secular government in any state, any town, or at all in the federal government, I do not think, is a good idea. What will happen when their local, religiously fueled laws contradict those of a secular government? What if a person passing through Ave maria uses a contraceptive, or gives an abortion, but is a legal citizen of another state, and Ave Maria arrests him?

Many religious laws contradict or come into trouble with secular laws, and when we witness the personal faith of our president limiting the rights of citizens, how can we expect beneficient results to come about in the towns?

I may not have read your post well enough. If they go through the process of trying to create their own town, then they should be given the same legal rights of ruling themselves that other towns are. I do not think they should contradict the federal or state government in decision making, and I personally feel they should be unable to mix religion and government, after all "Separation of Church and State" is a fundemental aspect of our country.

All I can say is it might seem harmless, but it's a dangerously slipperly slope.