I posted this on another forum that I frequent (that will remain undisclosed), and I figured that if I'm going to pour out my personal beliefs, I might as well fry a few more cortex's in the process.
WARNING: IF PHILOSOPHY ISN'T YOUR THING, SKIP THIS THREAD.
I went through several links that I've been reading, including a rather well-described but still rather meandering definition of nihilism at http://www.utm.edu/research/iep/n/nihilism.htm . It IS worth the read, if you're interested in the subject, but not as mandatory as the following in the understanding of nihilism.
I'll start with the first two paragraphs of "Nihilism Defined" by Freydis, and I'll tell you right from the start: These aren't my words, but they might as well be. I have yet to find a single passage by this man that is not EXACTLY structured towards my own views about life, society, and philosophy in general.
Please note that I did not set out in my search for nihilism looking for an idol, nor do I neccessarily consider Freydis an idol. He is someone who has elaborated on what I've been trying to determine for years, and who has apparently had the time to dig deep enough to formulate it as perfectly as he has. I consider Freydis a highly respected equal, so instead of heaping praise (albeit well-deserved praise) on him, I feel more obligated to apologize for using his words, instead of typing it out myself. That said...
Nihilism Defined
by Freydis
A common (but misleading) description of nihilism is the 'belief in nothing'. Instead, a far more useful one would substitute 'faith' for 'belief' where faith is defined as the "firm belief in something for which there is no proof." A universal definition of nihilism could then well be the rejection of that which requires faith for salvation or actualization and would span to include anything from theology to secular ideology. Within nihilism faith and similar values are discarded because they've no absolute, objective substance, they are invalid serving only as yet another exploitable lie never producing any strategically beneficial outcome. Faith is an imperative hazard to group and individual because it compels suspension of reason, critical analysis and common sense. Nietzsche once said that faith means not wanting to know. Faith is "don't let those pesky facts get in the way of our political plan or our mystically ordained path to heaven"; faith is "do what I tell you because I said so". All things that can't be disproved need faith, utopia needs faith, idealism needs faith, spiritual salvation needs faith. F**k faith.
The second element nihilism rejects is the belief in final purpose, that the universe is built upon non-random events and that everything is structured towards an eventual conclusive revelation. This is called teleology and it's the fatal flaw plaguing the whole rainbow of false solutions from Marxism to Buddhism and everything in between. Teleology compels obedience towards the fulfillment of "destiny" or "progress" or similar such grandiose goals. Teleology is used by despots and utopian dreamers alike as a coercive motivation leading only to yet another apocryphal apocalypse; the real way to lead humanity by the nose - tell them it's all part of the big plan so play along or else! It may even seem reasonable but there is not now and never has been any evidence the universe operates teleologically - there is no final purpose. This is the simple beauty nihilism has that no other idea-set does. By breaking free from the tethers of teleology one is empowered in outlook and outcome because for the first time it's possible to find answers without proceeding from pre-existing perceptions. We're finally free to find out what's really out there and not just the partial evidence to support original pretext and faulty notions only making a hell on earth in the process. So f**k teleology too.
The complete text (and if you found the above intriguing, or have issues with it's general point, I strongly urge you read on) can be found here: http://www.geocities.com/liudegast/nihilism.html
Currently playing: [Kermie's Gridstream Playlist] Atari Teenage Riot - Delete Yourself
On Nihilism
Moderator: Station Managers
9 posts
• Page 1 of 1
On Nihilism
by Tarryk » Sat Sep 13, 2003 1:58 am
-
Tarryk - GSP Creator
- Posts: 9207
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:24 pm
by Ichyro » Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:48 am
This seems more suiting to myself than agnosticism as well.
Nihilism would be no faith, rather a belief, in anything?
Like you could believe in life being ruled by science, by many gods, or just as fate.
Seems interesting, I'll read into it, thanks Tarryk.
Nihilism would be no faith, rather a belief, in anything?
Like you could believe in life being ruled by science, by many gods, or just as fate.
Seems interesting, I'll read into it, thanks Tarryk.
-
Ichyro - I Post, Therefore I Am
- Posts: 1263
- Joined: Mon Nov 25, 2002 2:19 am
by Otori » Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:51 pm
Hmmm.
The more I read down the link, the more I thought that my misled assumption about nihlism wasn't maybe so misled. It seems to use the rhetoric of anarchist (and thats not necessarily bad). Now before you get up in arms, I read the part comparing the two.....but this is what I find ironic and even a little funny: Nihlism has always rejected the idea of idealism, BUT isn't any "ism" idealistic? Isn't the construction and organization behind any "ism" whole-heardtly idealistic in its own right? The idea of not beleiving in "FAITH" is an oxy-moron at best, as well as the term "BLIND FAITH". People who have faith in anything are choosing (and I emphasize choosing) to be blind....its not necessarily bad either, because they CHOSE it.
Now, I am by no means bashing or flaming..far from it. As a scientist, I dont beleive in "science-ism". Just the facts, mam', just the facts.
Oh, as a side note, this is an interesting read in the history of some of the more formidable ideas in modern physics:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812693043/macinsearch08-20/702-4237770-1068853
The more I read down the link, the more I thought that my misled assumption about nihlism wasn't maybe so misled. It seems to use the rhetoric of anarchist (and thats not necessarily bad). Now before you get up in arms, I read the part comparing the two.....but this is what I find ironic and even a little funny: Nihlism has always rejected the idea of idealism, BUT isn't any "ism" idealistic? Isn't the construction and organization behind any "ism" whole-heardtly idealistic in its own right? The idea of not beleiving in "FAITH" is an oxy-moron at best, as well as the term "BLIND FAITH". People who have faith in anything are choosing (and I emphasize choosing) to be blind....its not necessarily bad either, because they CHOSE it.
Now, I am by no means bashing or flaming..far from it. As a scientist, I dont beleive in "science-ism". Just the facts, mam', just the facts.
Oh, as a side note, this is an interesting read in the history of some of the more formidable ideas in modern physics:
http://www.amazon.ca/exec/obidos/ASIN/0812693043/macinsearch08-20/702-4237770-1068853
- Otori
- Posts: 792
- Joined: Mon Nov 04, 2002 6:53 am
by Oddysee » Tue Sep 16, 2003 11:53 am
NOTE:
I have a very sarcastic view on life, the following should be read with that in mind. I stand by what I've written, but my views often come off a bit harsh due to my "negative" look on life. If it's raining, I don't look on the light side, as the light has been cut of by the clouds, simple logic!
That said, carry on.
Hmm... Interesting, I find equals and opposites to my own belief.
I am somewhat agnostic by nature, but after readin up on this stuff, I have to admit it fit's pretty well... I guess I just go by a diferent path.
Instead of not having faith in ideals, it's humans who bother me. I have, and I'll be the first to admit it, no faith in mankind, or people in general. It's just a fact. If you allow yourself to depend on people, you'll get dissapointed to say the least. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not just a negative 19 year-old who's been scared in life. Quite the contraire, my friends are very great and I'd depend on them anytime. BUT, humanity I have no faith in. Every descicion mankind has had to make has been for one purpose, and one alone... To further one self at the expense of others. Leave it to us to go greedy and ruin everything for everyone else.
That's also why kommunism doesn't, hasn't nor ever will work. Someone always f@#¤'s it up!
In general, I don't believe in a greater purpose and I agree with Nihilism on that matter, furthermore I also agree that faith blinds true "enlightenment"(?). But that's agian more because I see people as mindless sheep. Easy to manipulate. Give them a path, a half hearted solution, and they follow it gladly... Almost like lemmings (I needed a joke after all that...)
This might seem very harsh, and a lot of you will say it's due to my age and what not. Be my guest, who knows, you may be right, but that still doesn't change my beliefs.
In any case, I trust (have faith in, if you wish) the individual. Not the masses. The individual I know, I can measure him/her and see if they are "worth" (hard word, but for lack of better) knowing. As they can with me, so I avoid the people I find "off" and people who's view of life I don't fit into can avoid me, thus letting everyone have their way.
Life is to short to waste around people you don't like, and we wont be born again, nor go to heaven, so I'm not about to use it on anything else that what I want.
Hope that came out right... Have a feeling it might have made me come of as an emotionally scarred, bitter lil' teenager (workin on that, gimme a few months) with a riot complex... Oh well...
Tm
I have a very sarcastic view on life, the following should be read with that in mind. I stand by what I've written, but my views often come off a bit harsh due to my "negative" look on life. If it's raining, I don't look on the light side, as the light has been cut of by the clouds, simple logic!
That said, carry on.
Hmm... Interesting, I find equals and opposites to my own belief.
I am somewhat agnostic by nature, but after readin up on this stuff, I have to admit it fit's pretty well... I guess I just go by a diferent path.
Instead of not having faith in ideals, it's humans who bother me. I have, and I'll be the first to admit it, no faith in mankind, or people in general. It's just a fact. If you allow yourself to depend on people, you'll get dissapointed to say the least. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not just a negative 19 year-old who's been scared in life. Quite the contraire, my friends are very great and I'd depend on them anytime. BUT, humanity I have no faith in. Every descicion mankind has had to make has been for one purpose, and one alone... To further one self at the expense of others. Leave it to us to go greedy and ruin everything for everyone else.
That's also why kommunism doesn't, hasn't nor ever will work. Someone always f@#¤'s it up!
In general, I don't believe in a greater purpose and I agree with Nihilism on that matter, furthermore I also agree that faith blinds true "enlightenment"(?). But that's agian more because I see people as mindless sheep. Easy to manipulate. Give them a path, a half hearted solution, and they follow it gladly... Almost like lemmings (I needed a joke after all that...)
This might seem very harsh, and a lot of you will say it's due to my age and what not. Be my guest, who knows, you may be right, but that still doesn't change my beliefs.
In any case, I trust (have faith in, if you wish) the individual. Not the masses. The individual I know, I can measure him/her and see if they are "worth" (hard word, but for lack of better) knowing. As they can with me, so I avoid the people I find "off" and people who's view of life I don't fit into can avoid me, thus letting everyone have their way.
Life is to short to waste around people you don't like, and we wont be born again, nor go to heaven, so I'm not about to use it on anything else that what I want.
Hope that came out right... Have a feeling it might have made me come of as an emotionally scarred, bitter lil' teenager (workin on that, gimme a few months) with a riot complex... Oh well...
TmWill do naughty things for cake!
-
Oddysee - Unstoppable!
- Posts: 2416
- Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2003 6:18 pm
- Location: The voice in your head!
by Tarryk » Wed Sep 17, 2003 3:42 pm
Nihilism is most definitely NOTHING even close to the belief in "whatever you want", and I'm not sure where you got that impression, Ichyro. I'd suggest you read at least the two paragraphs provided for you on the first post in this thread before answering such a question.
Nihilism is not "belief in nothing" either, also as those two paragraphs do a good job of explaining. Belief in nothing is too loosely definable in it's semantics.
Think of it this way:
Nihilism is "faith" (for lack of a better term) that there is nothing existential in which to place faith, and that nothing that is self-defined as unprovable (such as faith, God, ghosts, etc) actually exists or ever has.
This usually leads to a billion other questions though, and before you ask me, I strongly urge that you go read the site I posted with the writings of Freydis. That IS the reason I posted it, after all.
Nihilism is not "belief in nothing" either, also as those two paragraphs do a good job of explaining. Belief in nothing is too loosely definable in it's semantics.
Think of it this way:
Nihilism is "faith" (for lack of a better term) that there is nothing existential in which to place faith, and that nothing that is self-defined as unprovable (such as faith, God, ghosts, etc) actually exists or ever has.
This usually leads to a billion other questions though, and before you ask me, I strongly urge that you go read the site I posted with the writings of Freydis. That IS the reason I posted it, after all.
-
Tarryk - GSP Creator
- Posts: 9207
- Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2002 2:24 pm
by Boinky » Fri Sep 19, 2003 5:58 pm
Very interesting, and fits pretty well with my universal outlook as well.
But I think we can all fool ouselves just a bit, or maybe comfort ourselves would be a better way to put it. I'd say many of us may have beliefs and ideas of the world around us that may be similar, and hence we may collectively label our beliefs something such as faith, or agnosticism, atheism, or nihilism. But even if we do, that does not change each and every one of our ndividual beliefs which may spread a pretty wide spectrum. A label may give us a collective feeling of being part of a group (of which all life forms are whether they want to be or not), but the group we now feel aprt of is a group in our thoughts only.
The above Intro to Nihilism 101 does indeed speak to my beliefs, but it's not necessarily the spot on picture in my head. I am certainly far reoved from any organized religion. I personally don't believe in God, Buddha, Mohhamed, Allah, Oprah, etc. Other than to say I do believe in them as far as to grant them the power they may have over folks. Belief can change anyone. If I believe I am having a good day it might turn out I do. If I believe that Turkey pot Pie was the best meal I ever had it may have been. But of course beliefe has limits. If I believe a benevolent God is watching over me it may certainly comfort me in my life, but it can't make that God exist (not even if an entire planet's population believes the same).
If anyone ever presses me with the question that always seems to follow an indication that you are an agnostic (I generally would say atheist but it's such a bad thing in some folks eyes, agnostic says that you at least believe in some higher power) "But you believe in some higher power right?" I generally would answer "I do have a belief in a higher power. And that is science. You want to know my god - science".
Science is the only thing that won't dissapoint. Well it might if you wanted to believe that pixies and elves resided on the planet in the Middle Ages along with dragons. But sciience is the continuing understanding of the universe and everything therein. Look around you, look up in the sky, look down in the oceans, consider why you are here, consider who may be somewhere out there - science can and will answer any and every question you may have, it's just gonna take awhile to answer some of them.
Sorry I kinda ranted a bit off topic there. Nhilism - Idealism withouth the ideals?
But I think we can all fool ouselves just a bit, or maybe comfort ourselves would be a better way to put it. I'd say many of us may have beliefs and ideas of the world around us that may be similar, and hence we may collectively label our beliefs something such as faith, or agnosticism, atheism, or nihilism. But even if we do, that does not change each and every one of our ndividual beliefs which may spread a pretty wide spectrum. A label may give us a collective feeling of being part of a group (of which all life forms are whether they want to be or not), but the group we now feel aprt of is a group in our thoughts only.
The above Intro to Nihilism 101 does indeed speak to my beliefs, but it's not necessarily the spot on picture in my head. I am certainly far reoved from any organized religion. I personally don't believe in God, Buddha, Mohhamed, Allah, Oprah, etc. Other than to say I do believe in them as far as to grant them the power they may have over folks. Belief can change anyone. If I believe I am having a good day it might turn out I do. If I believe that Turkey pot Pie was the best meal I ever had it may have been. But of course beliefe has limits. If I believe a benevolent God is watching over me it may certainly comfort me in my life, but it can't make that God exist (not even if an entire planet's population believes the same).
If anyone ever presses me with the question that always seems to follow an indication that you are an agnostic (I generally would say atheist but it's such a bad thing in some folks eyes, agnostic says that you at least believe in some higher power) "But you believe in some higher power right?" I generally would answer "I do have a belief in a higher power. And that is science. You want to know my god - science".
Science is the only thing that won't dissapoint. Well it might if you wanted to believe that pixies and elves resided on the planet in the Middle Ages along with dragons. But sciience is the continuing understanding of the universe and everything therein. Look around you, look up in the sky, look down in the oceans, consider why you are here, consider who may be somewhere out there - science can and will answer any and every question you may have, it's just gonna take awhile to answer some of them.
Sorry I kinda ranted a bit off topic there. Nhilism - Idealism withouth the ideals?
-
Boinky - Unstoppable!
- Posts: 2003
- Joined: Wed Apr 16, 2003 8:27 pm
- Location: Lookin' at a thing in a bag
9 posts
• Page 1 of 1
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests